The Ethics of Outdorr Recreation in Times of COVID-19

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Goldenboy, roughly how many days have gone Backcountry skiing in your life and how many times have you been seriously injured on mellow terrain?



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[altacoup]

last week you were telling us of


now youre first chair virtue singer of the shelter in place choir lookin for an emmy
can you share your shit got real lightbulb moment?
was it a vision?

Talking to my friends in Italy and Spain on the phone made me realize I need to stay at home. You don’t want to be living like they are.

[Conundrum]

I'm certainly not judging people for going skinning and really don't see risk in it depending on the terrain and skier. I have chosen not to-trying to limit driving and being out and about.

[new yabyum]

My wife is on Medical Staff at local hospital & has just shifted to providing ED care- so listen to altacoup & Vt-Freeheel.


& trust me, with her specialty - you dont want her to set your leg.

Psych?

[mtnjam]

The only person I saw at the trailhead yesterday (outside my group) is a doctor at the hospital. His response- "Getting out here today was the only thing that kept me going all week." Of the 2 people I skied with yesterday, one was SAR. Of the handful of people I saw the day before that, 2 were SAR, one was Fire Department. When I skied up the mountain last week (and no, I don't care that Fail says it's closed), the majority of the people I saw were patrol, skinning up the mountain. Their response, "we're laid off anyway." So no, I don't feel remotely bad that I'm skiing almost every day.

That said, my attitude would be different if all of that wasn't in my backyard.

Frank, I find it interesting that a LOT of medical people are getting out. I guess to us it's all about risk acceptance. I mean I see at least 8 patients per day and am in close proximity to them for brief periods of time, but I'm not garbed up in PPE's unless they are high risk and we've been notified of their conditions, but shit, we would be some of the last to know if a patient was CoVID-19 positive as apparently that is a violation of HIPPA. Gotta love gubmint red tape and privacy to protect the patient's information. Nah, don't worry about protecting the person providing you care. The hospitals could care less about that and that's clear in their policies that have been implemented with this "pandemic". If you even feel remotely bad as an essential hospital employee (even though what I do could be argued as "elective", but the procedures and scans I do make the hospital gobs of money) all algorithms say....come to work.

So....that's why I don't feel bad about getting out and about and still maintaining social distancing and managing my risk.

[goldenboy]

Goldenboy, roughly how many days have gone Backcountry skiing in your life and how many times have you been seriously injured on mellow terrain?



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Several hundred, a thousand? Zero. [knocks on wood]

[mtnjam]

Several hundred, a thousand? Zero. [knocks on wood]

Yeah, the parking lots are more hazardous than the terrain sometimes. All joking aside, I'm so happy your wife is back to it and healing well. She'll be back to 100+ days in no time if not already.

[simple]

Several hundred, a thousand? Zero. [knocks on wood]

But mountain biking? More than zero.

Ban mountain biking! It is too dangerous and you could hurt yourself. Ban all dangerous activities! Stay home and watch the news to be informed about how dangerous the world is.

[goldenboy]

Yeah, the parking lots are more hazardous than the terrain sometimes. All joking aside, I'm so happy your wife is back to it and healing well. She'll be back to 100+ days in no time if not already.

Seriously. I know of at least two lifelong skiers that broke legs or ACL's takiing a wrong step in a parking lot. To say nothing of what happened to my better half.

Scariest thing I did yesterday, by far, was the trip to the post office after skiing.

[old goat]

Frank, I find it interesting that a LOT of medical people are getting out. I guess to us it's all about risk acceptance. I mean I see at least 8 patients per day and am in close proximity to them for brief periods of time, but I'm not garbed up in PPE's unless they are high risk and we've been notified of their conditions, but shit, we would be some of the last to know if a patient was CoVID-19 positive as apparently that is a violation of HIPPA. Gotta love gubmint red tape and privacy to protect the patient's information. Nah, don't worry about protecting the person providing you care. The hospitals could care less about that and that's clear in their policies that have been implemented with this "pandemic". If you even feel remotely bad as an essential hospital employee (even though what I do could be argued as "elective", but the procedures and scans I do make the hospital gobs of money) all algorithms say....come to work.

So....that's why I don't feel bad about getting out and about and still maintaining social distancing and managing my risk.

I don't get the HIPPA thing. I don't know what your role is but you are entitled to know any medical information about a patient that is relevant to your care or contact with them. Even if you're housekeeping you're entitled to know about any communicable diseases the patient that vacated the room you're cleaning has. Some hospitals over-interpret because the govt does take HIPPA violations seriously.

To me acceptable risk right now is the same risk of injury as the chance that I'll trip on the stairs, fall in the bathroom, or slip on the ice walking my dog, and that I can maintain my 6 feet. (Neighbor knocked on the front door yesterday to ask me something, I had to keep backing up until I was just about out the back door. OK, I exaggerate a little.) So XC skiing but not downhill. And I don't see a problem with driving but if the parking is jammed, people parked along the road etc I turn around.

The great Scottish ice climber Dougal Haston broke his leg slipping on the ice on his front steps. (First winter ascent north face Eiger, soloed to the summit with only crampons and an ice pick like the one in fatal attraction and no ice ax.)

[xyz]

Erased.

[mtnjam]

I don't get the HIPPA thing. I don't know what your role is but you are entitled to know any medical information about a patient that is relevant to your care or contact with them. Even if you're housekeeping you're entitled to know about any communicable diseases the patient that vacated the room you're cleaning has. Some hospitals over-interpret because the govt does take HIPPA violations seriously.

For what it's worth and to put this in context, I am a Nuclear Medicine & PET/CT technologist.

I get the HIPPA thing a little, but withholding information from care providers is just dangerous and irresponsible. We have a thing now we are calling a "PUI" (person under investigation) so if that person does test positive for Covid-19 we are basically the last to know, nor do we know if the patient is even being tested for CoVID-19. Only until that patient tests positive (if they test negative we will never know) will the healthcare provider be informed and follow up to happen with all the departments the patient has been to and all the staff they may have come in contact with. Kinda bassackward if you ask me.
If we are taking care of the patient that day, yes, we can view their chart IF they are an inpatient, however, if they are an outpatient we only rely on the screening process taking place when the patient walks in the door (i.e. have you had a fever, travel, nausea, the shits, etc.) and again, we will never know the outcome if any of any CoVID-19 tests because after the day we see that patient, we can no longer access the patient information.

[old goat]

For what it's worth and to put this in context, I am a Nuclear Medicine & PET/CT technologist.

I get the HIPPA thing a little, but withholding information from care providers is just dangerous and irresponsible. We have a thing now we are calling a "PUI" (person under investigation) so if that person does test positive for Covid-19 we are basically the last to know, nor do we know if the patient is even being tested for CoVID-19. Only until that patient tests positive (if they test negative we will never know) will the healthcare provider be informed and follow up to happen with all the departments the patient has been to and all the staff they may have come in contact with. Kinda bassackward if you ask me.
If we are taking care of the patient that day, yes, we can view their chart IF they are an inpatient, however, if they are an outpatient we only rely on the screening process taking place when the patient walks in the door (i.e. have you had a fever, travel, nausea, the shits, etc.) and again, we will never know the outcome if any of any CoVID-19 tests because after the day we see that patient, we can no longer access the patient information.

that sucks. I always made sure my OR crew knew whatever germs my patients had--lot of Hep b and c, the occasional HIV.

[Afkpuz]

Kind of a minor point in the grand scheme of things but one thing that freaks me out is that the virus seems to survive longer when it's cold. Like, way longer: https://www.journalofhospitalinfecti...046-3/fulltext

Everyone's becoming an amateur virologist these days but ya do learn a thing to two reading this stuff. 28 days later indeed...

I don't have backcountry stuff, I'm losing my mind in quarantine like everyone else, etc. But I can deal with cabin fever pretty well, and I'd also put myself pretty low on the priority list of people who really, really need to get the hell out and have a sanity check. So I'm abstaining, including the hiking that seems so tempting, but honestly before reading this thread I'd only thought about it in purely selfish terms: I don't want this thing, a lot of people are probably out there, I don't want to be anywhere near them, anywhere low-risk will be mobbed, and anywhere high-risk is a really bad idea because even if rescue services etc are functioning, I'd still wind up in a hospital, which is probably the worst place to be.

That said the temp thing is still a real bummer for me. I'd been nursing a fantasy that come June or July (if it's even open,) maybe we'd have our shelter-in-place dictums a little more relaxed and I'd be able to go hike/ski the Miur snowfield, real mellow, just feel some snow again. But a lot of people will do that, and if this thing is so capable of staying alive while frozen... well, shit.

For those who are venturing out, I'll just ask of you this: if you suspect the area you're in has had any traffic whatsoever in the past months, abstain from face shots please?

e: for the sake of the rant - I mean this sucks conceptually. Snow is one of my favorite things. Obviously it's dangerous. Butnot wanting to ski because there's a killer virus in the fucking snow? Fuck's sake! The most minor point of all risk analysis mentioned really. But lately I like ranting and getting mad about the minor stuff, seems healthier and easier than the mind-melting horror of what the major stuff is right now.

[Shorty_J]

^^^ you're jumping to a lot of conclusions there.

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[bodywhomper]

It’s a heuristic trap. Low probability/high consequence. The bar has shifted. Many of the teachers and forecasters that introduced us to heuristic traps related to backcountry skiing are telling folks to tone it down. plenty seem to be ignoring them.

[simple]

This is some next level Monday morning quarterback analyst type shit. Or It's like watching a horror movie with your mom.

[kootenayskier]

Most people I know are toning it down, we know the deal, and are skiing well within our limits on moderate terrain, happy to living somewhere we can get out close to home to breath some fresh air, get some exercise, and slide on snow every day. I feel sorry for those of you that can’t, but you can’t make me feel guilty for your own misplaced anxiety, envy, and inability to rationally assess risk.

[XXX-er]

Butnot wanting to ski because [I]there's a killer virus in the fucking snow? .

only if ya try and breathe it

[bodywhomper]

Yesterday's FB post from Sierra Mountain Guides:
"Skier triggered avalanche on the Sherwin Ridge today. Danger is rated Moderate by @esavalanche, which indicates that triggering avalanches is possible. The primary avalanche problem today is small to large Wind Slabs. ESAC says: “Watch for denser deposits of fresh snow sensitive to human triggering just below ridgelines, sidewalls of gullies, steep convexities, and around cross-slope depressions and rock outcrops on NW-N-E-SE facing slopes at tree-line and above... Blowing snow and cornices can help you figure out where these slabs may lie, and shooting cracks mean that you are already on one.”
.
The people counter on the backside of the Sherwins counted 300+ people over the weekend. Under normal circumstances, a wonderful statistic, but these are unprecedented times.

Are skiers and snowboarders aware that the Sherwins are in the backcountry, and what that means for managing the risks? Are people aware of the potential consequences of being carried, and even buried, in an avalanche? Do we understand that the consequences are much more serious now during the pandemic, for us and the rest of the community?
.
Those of us that are not confident and clear about the causes and effects of these matters, have no business venturing into the backcountry at this time. Can we say that, or does it infringe too much on our liberty? The State of California has a “shelter in place” order in effect. It is a liberal interpretation to suggest recreating in backcountry avalanche terrain falls within the parameters of these orders.
.
We are fortunate that we live in such a free country to be able to interpret “shelter in place” to mean: “go to the mountains and ski pow.” Compare to our European mountain friends, who have been locked down by their government for weeks to maximize public health and safety. In these times, is our health and safety compatible with exercising our freedom to use public lands? I would like to think so, but I don’t know? Can we show that we can handle the responsibilities that come with these liberties, or will we have to all be sent to our rooms and have our toys taken away?"

here's the picture of the tracks/slab from their post:

[m2711c]

only if ya try and breathe it

don't be like charles...

[teledad]

I've given this issue some thought and definitely backed off my risk threshold (which wasn't that high to begin with). I'm lucky to have meadow skipping terrain basically across the street from my house in addition to bigger lines 2-3 miles away. I'm still going out but sticking to the easier terrain - at this point I'm more likely to be injured running on icy roads in the neighborhood than doing a mellow skin on 15 degree slopes. (Today we had gloppy wet snow and I "straightlined" down at about 5 mph.) I go solo or with family (same household) and give everyone else plenty of space.

I've stopped posting on IG though (not that I did that much anyway) and took my Strava account private - I don't want to contribute to the FOMO problem.

[skifishbum]

Talking to my friends in Italy and Spain on the phone made me realize I need to stay at home. You don’t want to be living like they are.

well thanks for answering and sharing your new found millinial wokeness
id tell you I havent been in the canyon since the resorts closed not because im more woke
but because I made descisions that were what I belived were best for me my fam and friends
as I accept others doing

allow me to share some stuff death didn't steal from Mr Harrison

“The world that used to nurse us
now keeps shouting inane instructions.
That's why I ran to the woods.”
---------------------------------
“Wherever we go we do harm, forgiving
ourselves as wheels do cement for wearing
each other out. We set this house
on fire, forgetting that we live within."
-----------------------------------------------------------
“The head's a cloud anchor that the feet must follow. Travel light, he said, or don't travel at all.”

yall attempt to stay safe how you see fit

[hutash]

We are now looking at 100,000 dead on the good side of the curve, assuming all states start stay at home. Obviously many here are ignoring that, so there will be well over 100,000 Americans dead. Stay at home means essential travel only. Driving to skin is not essential. Going for a walk/run/ride in your neighborhood is okay. Don't kill people, stay at home.

Yeah, I am being melodramatic, but if that is what it takes so be it. As I posted earlier, I have evolved my thinking since starting this thread. We all need to help. Maybe my staying in saves your mother or grandmother. If so, you are welcome. If you leaving home kills my father in law, then fuck you. This shit is serious, as serious as WW2, and the Spanish flu, two things nearly all of us have never experienced, so take it serious even though you can't comprehend just how serious it is.

[altacoup]

well thanks for answering and sharing your new found millinial wokeness
id tell you I havent been in the canyon since the resorts closed not because im more woke
but because I made descisions that were what I belived were best for me my fam and friends
as I accept others doing

allow me to share some stuff death didn't steal from Mr Harrison



yall attempt to stay safe how you see fit

40 years old genX just so you know. Electrician for Alta so I work there and for UDOT. So yeah my job is in Lcc. Lived in Spain for 4 years and had an Italian roommate for 2 years there. Talking to friends over there really opened my eyes. They have family in the hospital and haven’t done anything but get groceries in weeks. You’re just a burnt out ski tech with limited skills. Noticed you never replied to what I said in the other thread about when I met you in person. That is a true story and you were an embarrassment to talk to which is why I never introduced myself a a forum member on the chair. I judge people on my real life interactions with them not on their behavior on an Internet forum. And my one interaction with you speaks for itself.


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