The Ethics of Outdorr Recreation in Times of COVID-19

[uglymoney]

Is that to hepa insert to protect you or others for you?

My work allows carpooling with windows open and masks worn by all occupants, with max of 4 peeps per vehicle. Did a site visit with a utility client last month, and they had the same protocol.

To protect us hopefully? I rely on space and time of potential exposure more but both of us do have to interact with maskless people a little for our jobs.They are simple to make and don't make wearing the mask significantly more miserable so why not.

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[yeahman]

I feel lucky.

No doubt. Reading some of these posts makes me really grateful for where we live and its lack of shitshow crowds. Let's hope it stays that way.

[shaft]

To be clear: If you are refuse to wear a mask on a 2ft wide trail when passing people and often breathing heavily, you are not following CA state guidelines...which only allow exempt outdoor masks if you are never within 6ft of another person. This is true for hiking, trail running, and mtn biking...as well as the same activities on pavement. "I only passed three people today," is not an excuse. "I only walk on 12' wide fire roads," is arguably an excuse.

If your state guidelines are somehow different, please post them and highlight where you're getting your info. If your state guidelines require masks when hiking within 6ft of people and you are specifically leaving it at home or in your pocket, you are an anti-masker. When I pass you, and you're huffing and puffing that sweet, sweet, COVID breath, what I see is an unempathetic dickbag and can only assume you attend MAGA anti-mask rallies in your free time.

As a reminder, when this thread started we were debating whether it was even okay to go for a walk and risk injury that results in hospitalization. Now people are lucky enough to enjoy the outdoors every day, but openly and purposefully refusing to wear masks to protect those around them.

Wear a buff on your neck. Pull it up when you pass me. I'll do the same for you. It just ain't that hard.

[old goat]

Who passes someone on a 2 foot wide trail. One of you needs to get the fuck off the trail. Too bad if it interferes with your flow--and being a runner doesn't give you special privileges. The classic etiquette is up hill has ROW, but most people these days don't seem to know that so every time you meet someone there's a silent negotiation about who's going to step aside. But try being the one who always gets off the trail. It actually makes you feel good--certainly better than glaring people down and thinking about what entitled douches they are. If you get off the trail instead of wearing a mask you can see each other smile. The more smiles you see in a day the better you will feel. Please say thank you to the person who gets off the trail for you. Keep the groups small to make passing at a distance feasible. If two groups of a dozen meet on the trail distancing is impossible. You can only talk to one or two people on the trail anyway, but if you must hike in a large group, separate into small groups and space out. Give other trail users a break.

When I hiked the Tour du Mont Blanc every single person I passed said Bon Jour, Buon Giorno, or Guten Tag. Not like Murica where silence is the rule. I gave up answering in French/Italian/German and went with "Howdy" in my best fake cowboy accent.

[~mikey b]

I had some gasping, shouting twat on an ebike stop in the middle of a trail I was walking up the other day. Trying to engage me with inane conversation. No mask no space to pass. As I went way off trail to get the fuck away from her she bitched something at me about “unfriendly locals”. Yup that’s me. Get the fuck away from me.

[AK47bp]

Who passes someone on a 2 foot wide trail. One of you needs to get the fuck off the trail. Too bad if it interferes with your flow--and being a runner doesn't give you special privileges. The classic etiquette is up hill has ROW, but most people these days don't seem to know that so every time you meet someone there's a silent negotiation about who's going to step aside..

I think by “passing” some of us mean the traffic coming in the opposite direction, not going around the person in front of you.

And “get the fuck off the trail” isn’t really an option on switchbacks or in super dense vegetation areas (western WA).



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[bodywhomper]

The state of CA’s guidelines are intentionally simple and try to error on the side of caution. (Note, that their guidelines for other stuff is not up-to-date on current understanding of viral transmission, such as indoor transmission, and are putting people at higher risk than many people realize.)

If I were walking around steep narrow trails dense with people and vegetation, I’d be wearing the buff that I’m always carrying, and so would the rest of my family.

In terms of putting rescuers at risk, this still seems like a hazard. There are a lot more recreation-based rescues occurring now than back in March and April. I see a water-rescue helicopter fly over my house almost every day. I can’t imagine that medics and SAR crews are all wearing properly fitted n95 masks or other relevant ppe in a rescue operation (maybe I’m wrong). I guess we’ll see how that goes for them.

[Bronco]

In terms of putting rescuers at risk, this still seems like a hazard. There are a lot more recreation-based rescues occurring now than back in March and April. I see a water-rescue helicopter fly over my house almost every day. I can’t imagine that medics and SAR crews are all wearing properly fitted n95 masks or other relevant ppe in a rescue operation (maybe I’m wrong). I guess we’ll see how that goes for them.

In our county, SAR is wearing personal cloth masks from the time they meet to carpool to the time they are back at their personal vehicle. Also required to put a mask on the subject during evacuation unless medical issues would prevent this. Also, if someone needs CPR in the backcountry, they're limited to chest compressions and/or AED, no rescue breathing, even with a CPR mask. If you infect people on a SAR team, it leaves a big gap in responders so there is an abundance of caution these days.

[muted]

To be clear: If you are refuse to wear a mask on a 2ft wide trail when passing people and often breathing heavily, you are not following CA state guidelines...which only allow exempt outdoor masks if you are never within 6ft of another person. This is true for hiking, trail running, and mtn biking...as well as the same activities on pavement. "I only passed three people today," is not an excuse. "I only walk on 12' wide fire roads," is arguably an excuse.

If your state guidelines are somehow different, please post them and highlight where you're getting your info. If your state guidelines require masks when hiking within 6ft of people and you are specifically leaving it at home or in your pocket, you are an anti-masker. When I pass you, and you're huffing and puffing that sweet, sweet, COVID breath, what I see is an unempathetic dickbag and can only assume you attend MAGA anti-mask rallies in your free time.

As a reminder, when this thread started we were debating whether it was even okay to go for a walk and risk injury that results in hospitalization. Now people are lucky enough to enjoy the outdoors every day, but openly and purposefully refusing to wear masks to protect those around them.

Wear a buff on your neck. Pull it up when you pass me. I'll do the same for you. It just ain't that hard.

I'm in Utah. I bike in Park City, 1-2x week. I have seen ZERO bikers wear a mask since June 1st, and 2-4 hikers with them.

Not sure if PC requires masks on trails, nobody cares either. Looks like Trump will win Utah this year, eh?

[shaft]

I'm in Utah. I bike in Park City, 1-2x week. I have seen ZERO bikers wear a mask since June 1st, and 2-4 hikers with them.

Not sure if PC requires masks on trails, nobody cares either. Looks like Trump will win Utah this year, eh?

Summit County regulations are here. About one page of reading. Not very strict. No masks required outdoors unless you are at a 50+ person gathering. I recommend everyone at least read their local ordinance so that they can objectively decide if they are following their own regs before bitching on facebook/TGR. Will take you all of 5min on the County health site.

As you can tell, I think it's pretty fkn lame to forego a mask on a trail if you are going to see other people on the same trail. Just lacks the Golden Rule.

The state of CA’s guidelines are intentionally simple and try to error on the side of caution. (Note, that their guidelines for other stuff is not up-to-date on current understanding of viral transmission, such as indoor transmission, and are putting people at higher risk than many people realize.)

totally agree. The regs shittiness is part of why CA is seeing 10k new cases per day (which will result in about 1,000 deaths per day come August, and about 500 people per day with long-term disabilities due to COVID.)

I merely posted the regs here because it is worth self-reflecting and determining if you are objectively following state's minimum mask requirements. What I'm seeing with my eyes is a bunch of outdoorsy people who are likely posting negatively about anti-maskers online, but are themselves acting too good for masks and failing to follow state mandates on the trails. They probably make up excuses, like "moving out of the way on the trail" or "Sanjay said no catchy covy outside"...to make up for their hypocrisy. Maybe their necks look hella sexy while biking and they don't want to hide them? IDK the reason, but I'm seeing about 2-5% compliance around these parts.

[Name Redacted]

A local news article or letter to the editor (I forget) the other day lamented The widening of trails due to Covid distancing. Talk about first world problems.

[muted]

As you can tell, I think it's pretty fkn lame to forego a mask on a trail if you are going to see other people on the same trail. Just lacks the Golden Rule.

If no bikers are wearing a mask here, who are we offending? The golden rule is being applied, no biker is concerned here. The couple hikers I've seen with masks I couldn't get within 6' if I tried. If PC requires masks anytime soon, it will change very little.

Who cares what the rules are though. If I find out it's super contagious on trails, I'll be wearing a mask wether the rules say or not. I get that you are paranoid, and you could be rightfully so, but we don't all have to accommodate your paranoia if we disagree with you. I don't see any evidence of rich white people hiking/biking getting everyone sick.

[shaft]

^Greatly appreciate the open dialogue and I really like that point RE:Golden Rule Could technically also be called "mob mentality." We should all remember that the same mob mentality, or Golden Rule, or bad advice from leaders, is the reason people didn't wear masks for two months at the beginning of this crisis, contrary to all scientific evidence. If a proven case of biker-to-biker transmission on a trail is the only way to get people to wear masks, it is just not going to happen.

I am not a pandemic expert by profession, but am an indoor air quality expert and have designed buildings with the specific goal of reducing disease spread in indoor environments from schools to hospitals. Outdoor environments are def safer than indoors, but there are many examples of coronavirus spread in outdoor environments. In this example, 29 people contracted a COVID-19 thanks to an outdoor party where the partygoers, like Park City bikers, declined to wear masks. We all live in the same atmosphere. If you believe spreading the virus on a street in NYC is possible, then it is also possible to spread on a trail. This is not paranoia, this is science. Yes, reducing viral load due to reduced time near spreaders, increased access to outdoor air reduces the risk of transmission, but it does not eliminate the possibility. Adding the face covering is what brings that to a near non-existent level by keeping droplets inside the mask, rather than out in the open.

So, how worried should you be that any time you go outside, you’ll contract coronavirus from a fellow pedestrian, runner, or cyclist who happens to exhale as they pass by? The answer is, you probably don’t need to freak out about it. As long as you’re maintaining at least 6 feet of distance from other people and you’re not in a high-risk group, you’re engaged in a very low-risk activity, particularly if you and others are wearing masks.

~20-30% of trail users are in the high risk category due to age, genetic health conditions, and other factors. We know that the mask protects those near the wearer rather than the wearer. If that was not the case, no one would care if anyone else wears a mask. If you are not high risk, but someone you are passing is high risk and wearing a mask; they have chosen to protect you, but you have specifically chosen not to reciprocate.

https://www.latimes.com/travel/story...virus-pandemic

Edited to add: I think people have misconstrued the over-arching advice with regards to six feet. The idea is that a min of 6 feet distance PLUS a mask helps prevent the spread. This is not an either/or, it's both.

[muted]

That vox article summed up the difference between you and me

"Psychologically, different people have different levels of tolerance for risk. For some people, any risk that can be minimized, should be, no matter how small. For others, the recommended 6-foot distance, with (no) masks, and the known decay of both the amount and the infectiousness of the virus — that’s good enough."

I'm not going to disagree using masks on trails makes it nearly impossible to catch it, but my risk tolerance is a bit different than yours, we have less cases here, and I avoid crowded trails, which was really hard to do when I lived in CA for a summer.

[uglymoney]

Yep. I think masks on trails makes perfect sense in some cases. For instance my daughter and I did the loop around Devils Tower on a weekday and by the time we left there was an uncomfortable number of people on that trail with no mask. They need a mask mandate imo even outside at crowded attractions like that. We did have masks with us, but were able to get out of there just as crowds were building and avoid the scattered unconcerned folks on the trail. Also it was windy as heck so that made it easy. In other cases it is not needed. I walk on trails almost every day and never wear a mask on the trail because I encounter few people and just move way away, hold breath, observe winds, converse at great distance if that happens. I don't think that makes me anti-mask at all, but YMMV.

Also an outdoor party where the 29 infections came from (15 initial), seems different than passing on a trail, where confirmed transfer has really not been proven. A party is people drinking and talking to each other at close distances for extended periods. Much different than most trail environments...although I admit the potential exists for conditions to exist for viral transfer on a trail.

[mall walker]

That vox article summed up the difference between you and me

"Psychologically, different people have different levels of tolerance for risk. For some people, any risk that can be minimized, should be, no matter how small. For others, the recommended 6-foot distance, with (no) masks, and the known decay of both the amount and the infectiousness of the virus — that’s good enough."

I'm not going to disagree using masks on trails makes it nearly impossible to catch it, but my risk tolerance is a bit different than yours, we have less cases here, and I avoid crowded trails, which was really hard to do when I lived in CA for a summer.

+1

also a lot of the messaging HERE in UT is "wear a mask when you CANNOT social distance", not AND when you're socially distancing.

contract tracers consider an encounter "significant" when you spend 5+ mins within 6' of an infected person indoors, right? it's surely possible you'll catch it blowing past opposite-direction MTB traffic at a mere 4' distance, but...

it feels like "spending 5 mins less in the supermarket" still has a bigger impact. you could also just not go on trails at all and entirely eliminate trail risk...

[shaft]

^The disagreement might be more nuanced. I don't think it is up to me to choose the risk tolerance for others on the trails. Me not wearing a mask and passing someone who is, is me choosing our risk tolerance, and, in turn, disallowing their risk tolerance of other users to be valued. Me first, others fuck off. It is an exercise in totalitarianism...one decides it is their right to make the executive decision for all. Nationwide, it is "high tolerance for risk" that has resulted in more US deaths that the bombing of Nagasaki.

Risk tolerance is often tied to a reward. I risk my life skiing no fall zones because the reward is what I live for. It appears some on trails believe that masks reduce the risk of transmission of COVID-19, but choose not to wear one specifically on trails because there is some big reward...I just don't see the reward. What is it?

I too am doing my best to avoid crowded trails for sure. Only so much I can do. I probably see 2-20 people on the average hike/bike. Not sure what percent have COVID. Statistically, it would seem like one person I pass every 2-3 weeks?

[bodywhomper]

In our county, SAR is wearing personal cloth masks from the time they meet to carpool to the time they are back at their personal vehicle. Also required to put a mask on the subject during evacuation unless medical issues would prevent this. Also, if someone needs CPR in the backcountry, they're limited to chest compressions and/or AED, no rescue breathing, even with a CPR mask. If you infect people on a SAR team, it leaves a big gap in responders so there is an abundance of caution these days.

Thx for posting. I hope other SAR teams are following these types of protocol. I know a few SAR peeps near me, but haven’t seen them in a while.

CHP, CalFire, and county SAR pages in my area have been posting vids and pictures on FB of some of their recent rescue operations. In vids and photos, I have not seen a mask being worn. Here’s an example with plenty of photos: https://www.facebook.com/95091211838...389321676/?d=n

[bodywhomper]

That contact tracing method for UT seems to not account for the aerosol transmission information that people keep talking about.

[old goat]

I think by “passing” some of us mean the traffic coming in the opposite direction, not going around the person in front of you.

And “get the fuck off the trail” isn’t really an option on switchbacks or in super dense vegetation areas (western WA).



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That's what I mean by passing too, although I do pass in the same direction--a lot of little kids on trails probably too tough for them these days. And I get passed.
Obviously there will be places where it's impossible to get off the trail but around here few and far between. It does take some advanced planning sometimes to pick the best place to get off the trail. It's the new normal (a phrase I hate). I never passed with both of us on the trail pre Covid. It's just courtesy.

[mall walker]

I never passed with both of us on the trail pre Covid. It's just courtesy.

yeah same

[glademaster]

yeah same

Then you would be able to hike about 12 yards in Western Washington. Nobody is stepping off a trail for someone to pass out here.

[Shredhead]

I always have a buff, JIC.
I was out the door at 6am, rode two hours and only saw 1 person at the very end.
It was my doctor. He didn’t pull his buff up either and he wanted to talk about trails.

[old goat]

^The disagreement might be more nuanced. I don't think it is up to me to choose the risk tolerance for others on the trails. Me not wearing a mask and passing someone who is, is me choosing our risk tolerance, and, in turn, disallowing their risk tolerance of other users to be valued. Me first, others fuck off. It is an exercise in totalitarianism...one decides it is their right to make the executive decision for all. Nationwide, it is "high tolerance for risk" that has resulted in more US deaths that the bombing of Nagasaki.

Risk tolerance is often tied to a reward. I risk my life skiing no fall zones because the reward is what I live for. It appears some on trails believe that masks reduce the risk of transmission of COVID-19, but choose not to wear one specifically on trails because there is some big reward...I just don't see the reward. What is it?

I too am doing my best to avoid crowded trails for sure. Only so much I can do. I probably see 2-20 people on the average hike/bike. Not sure what percent have COVID. Statistically, it would seem like one person I pass every 2-3 weeks?

Having to adjust one's behavior to satisfy the most risk-averse person you might theoretically encounter is also "totalitariansim". That's why we have rules--hopefully based on science, not on Trump, so that there is a community standard that some will feel is too strict, some will feel is too lenient, and hopefully will satisfy the majority. Those who cannot abide the community standard need to avoid other people and limit their activities to respect the right of the majority.

[muted]

^The disagreement might be more nuanced. I don't think it is up to me to choose the risk tolerance for others on the trails. Me not wearing a mask and passing someone who is, is me choosing our risk tolerance, and, in turn, disallowing their risk tolerance of other users to be valued. Me first, others fuck off. It is an exercise in totalitarianism...one decides it is their right to make the executive decision for all. Nationwide, it is "high tolerance for risk" that has resulted in more US deaths that the bombing of Nagasaki.

We are talking about going biking, not nuclear bombing other users. Trail etiquette of rich white people is not making or breaking this pandemic. Anyone interacting with me on a trail does not have to pass within 6' of me, breath my air, or anything, I'm not making that choice for them. Each interaction is unique, and I'm reading cues before we pass. i will say if I pass anyone with a mask in the future I may be extra respectful due to your thoughts.

Another option is if you are that uptight, stay home. My wife hasn't biked all year, she is uptight about catching it on a trail but doesn't complain what others do without masks.

i totally get your point, don't get me wrong. it is selfish and you have every right to be on the trail and feel safe. I think you are overreacting, sorry.

i worry more about getting hit by another biker, i have so many close calls it's insane these days how fast people are going.