The Ethics of Outdorr Recreation in Times of COVID-19

[shaft]

Science is showing that the greatest risks come from poorly ventilated indoor environments when masks are not worn, social distancing is not practiced, and when the duration of the stay is fifteen minutes or longer. We will likely continue to know even more about the virus in the weeks and months ahead.

God, everyone has taken this little tidbit and run with it, eh? Science has shown that for decades. If you didn't know that in before 2020, you must've started going to bars after they banned smoking. Instead of using statistics like "60% of COVID transmissions have happened in indoor environments" (this stat does not exist,) He's using the "it's more dangerous over here, so it is safe over there" fallacy. To compare to smoking...if someone was smoking next to you in a 10m lift line, would you smell it?

I go back to my recent post: we just don't know about outdoor transmission of COVID. What percentage of cases were transmitted in the outdoors? How many breaths of someone's lungs do I need to inhale to get COVID? These answers aren't known, but they can be! If Alterra or Sugarbush care about the health of their patrons, they will fund scientific research into these specific questions; and open based on the findings. Instead, they are leaning on the same subjective sentence brought up time-and-time-again by those who refuse to wear masks outdoors.

I believe there is a safe way to open ski resorts...but I fear they are choosing not to take that path.

Of course, the current quarantine measures that are in place here in Vermont and elsewhere will need to be followed and weekend visits for out of state guests could be impacted.

This is the big question, but ski resorts have the guts to tackle it. Corporations lean on County, State, and Federal guidelines so that they can pass the buck. Getting to a stage of re-containment means we stop crossing state and county borders all the time.You close the borders, then contain within those borders. It's like fighting a wildfire. If states don't do that, than it is the ethical imperative of ski resorts to only allow guests from within a geographical boundary (State lines make the most sense.) Does that mean I can't visit my friend's ski resort even by car, even when tested the week before? Yes. Does that mean I can't visit a ski resort 30 minutes away in a different state. YES!

"Tahoe is the busiest I've seen it since I've lived here" - 35 year Tahoe resident.
"It is like 4th of July every day" - 31-year Tahoe resident
"It's like everyone went on a road trip, and they need to go to the Cowboy Bar when they get here." - Jackson resident

Jackson's health system is about to crumble due to outbreaks and potential infections among hospital staff. I'm sure this is true elsewhere. Close the borders, close the AirBnBs, close the restaurants. Contain the virus...win back the ski season! And if it is not contained on opening day, refuse service to those who live a certain distance away. Refuse service to me.

As for the science. An anecdotal sentence without numbers isn't science-based decision-making. If that is how you are making decisions, Win, leave the word "science" out of it.

[summit]

I don’t believe it counts at the bike parks right now, but i could be mistaken.

Snowmass and Trestle don't let you count a chinguard as a mask. Because it isn't a mask.

[old goat]

God, everyone has taken this little tidbit and run with it, eh? Science has shown that for decades. If you didn't know that in before 2020, you must've started going to bars after they banned smoking. Instead of using statistics like "60% of COVID transmissions have happened in indoor environments" (this stat does not exist,) He's using the "it's more dangerous over here, so it is safe over there" fallacy. To compare to smoking...if someone was smoking next to you in a 10m lift line, would you smell it?

I go back to my recent post: we just don't know about outdoor transmission of COVID. What percentage of cases were transmitted in the outdoors? How many breaths of someone's lungs do I need to inhale to get COVID? These answers aren't known, but they can be! If Alterra or Sugarbush care about the health of their patrons, they will fund scientific research into these specific questions; and open based on the findings. Instead, they are leaning on the same subjective sentence brought up time-and-time-again by those who refuse to wear masks outdoors.

I believe there is a safe way to open ski resorts...but I fear they are choosing not to take that path.



This is the big question, but ski resorts have the guts to tackle it. Corporations lean on County, State, and Federal guidelines so that they can pass the buck. Getting to a stage of re-containment means we stop crossing state and county borders all the time.You close the borders, then contain within those borders. It's like fighting a wildfire. If states don't do that, than it is the ethical imperative of ski resorts to only allow guests from within a geographical boundary (State lines make the most sense.) Does that mean I can't visit my friend's ski resort even by car, even when tested the week before? Yes. Does that mean I can't visit a ski resort 30 minutes away in a different state. YES!

"Tahoe is the busiest I've seen it since I've lived here" - 35 year Tahoe resident.
"It is like 4th of July every day" - 31-year Tahoe resident
"It's like everyone went on a road trip, and they need to go to the Cowboy Bar when they get here." - Jackson resident

Jackson's health system is about to crumble due to outbreaks and potential infections among hospital staff. I'm sure this is true elsewhere. Close the borders, close the AirBnBs, close the restaurants. Contain the virus...win back the ski season! And if it is not contained on opening day, refuse service to those who live a certain distance away. Refuse service to me.

As for the science. An anecdotal sentence without numbers isn't science-based decision-making. If that is how you are making decisions, Win, leave the word "science" out of it.

Containment--closing borders and the like--doesn't work when the virus is already everywhere, as Dr. Birx recently pointed out (and seriously pissing off Donald Trump). The virus will continue to spread after the borders are closed as long as the locals keep gathering and partying and refusing to wear masks. Keeping people out would work by reducing the population density at ski resorts, grocery stores, and any other place where strangers interact. Whether you do it by prohibiting out of state visitors (won't do much good in California), out of county visitors (Roseville can go to Squaw but Truckee can't), or by imposing quotas and requiring reservations even for pass holders (law suits and the like but that probably makes the most sense) doesn't matter, as long as you reduce the numbers. And if you reduce the numbers can the resorts survive?

The resorts are thinking about survival. They can't be depended on to make the right calls on how to operate safely if at all, even if there were good science and there won't be until after the fact. The call will have to be made by politicians and health departments as they are for other businesses. Which means a place like Jackson will likely operate very differently from a place like Squaw, because of the different politics of their states (and because of their different circumstances).


Your point about the outdoors being less risk not meaning no risk is a good one. People on the beaches and trails behave as if the risk is zero.


I would like to see the STR's closed for now, since they are often rented to multiple households at a time with inadequate cleaning and time between groups, because of the excessive population they impose on resort areas, and because of the huge problem they impose on people looking for housing

[shaft]

Great post. I want to note that I think we can do almost anything we want with the right protocols. Maybe we should start a thread just asking maggots what protocols should be implemented?

Containment--closing borders and the like--doesn't work when the virus is already everywhere, as Dr. Birx recently pointed out (and seriously pissing off Donald Trump).

This is not exactly true. Mitigation (masks + distance) is not a strategy that will get us resort-accessed powder days this winter. Mitigation will undoubtedly mean reservation/tee times. These sell out in minutes or seconds.

Re-containment is the only way is the only way to safely get us access to ski resorts this winter. It is super simple: stop cross-border travel, shutdown businesses and fund with a stimulus bill for 70 days, roll out hardcore testing. After 70 days, you will have beaten the virus from mitigation levels to containment levels and will only have leftover outbreaks in certain cities/counties. Containment is how you beat pandemics prior to vaccine development. It worked for ebola (I know, different virus.) It can work for any pandemic. It's why Australia beat AIDS before the HIV treatment was developed and the US didn't.


PS: Whenever you quote Birx* or Fauci*, please add the asterisk.
*they only say what they think they can say without getting fired, and have knowingly lied to or misled the public many times.

[MontuckyFried]

Sturgis Motorcycle Rally of 250,000-500,000+ is on for Aug 7-16, 2000. Sturgis, S.D.

Will this prove to be a super spreader event? curious...


✓ smoking check
✓ comorbidity check
✓ obesity check
✓ drunken bars and outdoor events with thousands check
✓campgrounds overflowing check
✓ close hand to hand combat check

Then disperse back to all points across America...

Attachment 336209

OR conversely, a necessary thinning of the herd? Glass half full, Micol.

You're 100% correct about the demographics of the Sturgis crowd. Will be interesting to see how things shake out within that group.

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[AdironRider]

God, everyone has taken this little tidbit and run with it, eh? Science has shown that for decades. If you didn't know that in before 2020, you must've started going to bars after they banned smoking. Instead of using statistics like "60% of COVID transmissions have happened in indoor environments" (this stat does not exist,) He's using the "it's more dangerous over here, so it is safe over there" fallacy. To compare to smoking...if someone was smoking next to you in a 10m lift line, would you smell it?

I go back to my recent post: we just don't know about outdoor transmission of COVID. What percentage of cases were transmitted in the outdoors? How many breaths of someone's lungs do I need to inhale to get COVID? These answers aren't known, but they can be! If Alterra or Sugarbush care about the health of their patrons, they will fund scientific research into these specific questions; and open based on the findings. Instead, they are leaning on the same subjective sentence brought up time-and-time-again by those who refuse to wear masks outdoors.

I believe there is a safe way to open ski resorts...but I fear they are choosing not to take that path.



This is the big question, but ski resorts have the guts to tackle it. Corporations lean on County, State, and Federal guidelines so that they can pass the buck. Getting to a stage of re-containment means we stop crossing state and county borders all the time.You close the borders, then contain within those borders. It's like fighting a wildfire. If states don't do that, than it is the ethical imperative of ski resorts to only allow guests from within a geographical boundary (State lines make the most sense.) Does that mean I can't visit my friend's ski resort even by car, even when tested the week before? Yes. Does that mean I can't visit a ski resort 30 minutes away in a different state. YES!

"Tahoe is the busiest I've seen it since I've lived here" - 35 year Tahoe resident.
"It is like 4th of July every day" - 31-year Tahoe resident
"It's like everyone went on a road trip, and they need to go to the Cowboy Bar when they get here." - Jackson resident

Jackson's health system is about to crumble due to outbreaks and potential infections among hospital staff. I'm sure this is true elsewhere. Close the borders, close the AirBnBs, close the restaurants. Contain the virus...win back the ski season! And if it is not contained on opening day, refuse service to those who live a certain distance away. Refuse service to me.

As for the science. An anecdotal sentence without numbers isn't science-based decision-making. If that is how you are making decisions, Win, leave the word "science" out of it.

The three nurses I know here in Jackson (two work with Covid patients) all have had their hours cut due to a lack of work since Covid started here. My wife is pregnant and we are in and out of St Johns every other week. There is actually parking available every time. There are a sea of worker bees there though. There are also currently zero covid patients admitted to St. Johns currently. Zero.

This collapse of the health care system you speak of, at least locally, is just not true. If anything, St Johns biggest danger is the ongoing lack of revenue producing procedures.

https://www.stjohns.health/coronavir...daily-updates/

We are however, balls deep in dumb fuck tourists. The influx really has been pretty incredible to see.

[old goat]

Great post. I want to note that I think we can do almost anything we want with the right protocols. Maybe we should start a thread just asking maggots what protocols should be implemented?



This is not exactly true. Mitigation (masks + distance) is not a strategy that will get us resort-accessed powder days this winter. Mitigation will undoubtedly mean reservation/tee times. These sell out in minutes or seconds.

Re-containment is the only way is the only way to safely get us access to ski resorts this winter. It is super simple: stop cross-border travel, shutdown businesses and fund with a stimulus bill for 70 days, roll out hardcore testing. After 70 days, you will have beaten the virus from mitigation levels to containment levels and will only have leftover outbreaks in certain cities/counties. Containment is how you beat pandemics prior to vaccine development. It worked for ebola (I know, different virus.) It can work for any pandemic. It's why Australia beat AIDS before the HIV treatment was developed and the US didn't.


PS: Whenever you quote Birx* or Fauci*, please add the asterisk.
*they only say what they think they can say without getting fired, and have knowingly lied to or misled the public many times.

Unfortunately I don't think Trump will suddenly implement a nationwide shutdown and travel ban so that we can ski this winter. Now if we were talking about golf . . .

[The SnowShow]

OR conversely, a necessary thinning of the herd? Glass half full, Micol.

You're 100% correct about the demographics of the Sturgis crowd. Will be interesting to see how things shake out within that group.

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Those assholes should be forced to quarantine once home.

[shaft]

The three nurses I know here in Jackson (two work with Covid patients) all have had their hours cut due to a lack of work since Covid started here. My wife is pregnant and we are in and out of St Johns every other week. There is actually parking available every time. There are a sea of worker bees there though. There are also currently zero covid patients admitted to St. Johns currently. Zero.

This collapse of the health care system you speak of, at least locally, is just not true. If anything, St Johns biggest danger is the ongoing lack of revenue producing procedures.

https://www.stjohns.health/coronavir...daily-updates/

Congrats on the upcoming kiddo! Good intel overall.

Glad to hear I was over-exaggerating with the "about to crumble" statement. I do get the feeling that your hospital is reasonably prepared to handle the influx. However, I'm very worried about Jackson in 20-30 days, and think the blame rests on over-tourism. Bummer given how great Town of Jackson did in the spring. Good chance I'll be proven wrong on the 20-30 day thing. Here's to hoping you send me a PM on 9/1 saying "fuck you, we good." Seriously, I want that PM.

As you said, the hour-cutting is not COVID related; and feels like a mix of idiotic and cruel.

We are however, balls deep in dumb fuck tourists. The influx really has been pretty incredible to see.

To say "we are the most crowded we've ever been" during COVID, is insanity. #staythefuckhome

[Benny Profane]

Sturgis Motorcycle Rally of 250,000-500,000+ is on for Aug 7-16, 2000. Sturgis, S.D.

Will this prove to be a super spreader event? curious...


✓ smoking check
✓ comorbidity check
✓ obesity check
✓ drunken bars and outdoor events with thousands check
✓campgrounds overflowing check
✓ close hand to hand combat check

Then disperse back to all points across America...

Attachment 336209

Should help the Social Secrity fund survive in solvency a few more years, and I'd short Harley Davidson stock, although that company has been quite the survivor over its history.

[plugboots]

Harley's hurting. E-motorcycle ain't selling, core demographic was dying away anyway. My niece's husband was an engineer there and left. They still ride, though.

[Benny Profane]

I did a factory tour a while back in their York, Pa. facility, and they start it with a "history of Harley" film, and, man, that has not been a company without hard times in it's history. AMF, Japanese bikes, the inability to manufacture off shore, because their base won't buy into it. But, still around. It'll probably die with the Boomers in ten to twenty years.

[hutash]

We all the public health, epidemiology and contact tracing (or lack there of) being done, I would hope they would have a pretty good idea by now just where and how COVID19 is spreading. She we know about indoors events, singing, etc, but is that 70, 90, 99% of the spread? Is outdoor spread common, only in groups, brief or prolonged contact, etc? It seems like these questions would be easily answered by this point in the pandemic. and it would allow reasonable people to make wise, informed choices.

It appears outdoor events are relatively safe, since there does not appear to be a big spike in cases after the BLM protests, but some hard data, or at least a good summary of data would be welcome. I find it hard to believe that we would become infected by passing unmasked on a trail or sidewalk. It would be nice to know if the data backs that or not. I am perfectly willing to modify my behavior if I see a good reason to. I do not go to bars, minimize any indoor activities, wear a mask when I shop, etc, all because the data support such behavoir. What behaviors can we do and which should we avoid...that information has to be out there by now.

[Micol]

Should help the Social Secrity fund survive in solvency a few more years, and I'd short Harley Davidson stock, although that company has been quite the survivor over its history.

lol

[Bunion 2020]

Getting to ride lifts and ski at a resort are kind of low priority right now.

Heresy on a ski forum but it needed to be said/written.

Found out today that I was exposed at a job site last week. The Tracing program in Montana is so solid I found out by accident when I visited the site today and that entire crew was absent and I asked where so and so was. "oh, didn't you hear?" was the answer.

And no it was not that site in S/P.

[shaft]

https://www.tetongravity.com/story/n...se-wear-a-mask

[schindlerpiste]

Going fishing tonight on Key Biscayne with a H.S. and lifelong buddy who I see twice a year when I am in FL. He lives in Miami. While I don't think that I have COVID, and I am sure he does not think that he has COVID, I feel a bit wierd that I want him to wear a mask while he is in my car. Also, I'm not sure that I should insist that he wear one while riding with me. I can see myself rolling down the windows in the 90 degree humid weather and leaning my head that way out the window. ....I hope that he just wants to wear a mask. Whoa is me...

[zion zig zag]

Going fishing tonight on Key Biscayne with a H.S. and lifelong buddy who I see twice a year when I am in FL. He lives in Miami. While I don't think that I have COVID, and I am sure he does not think that he has COVID, I feel a bit wierd that I want him to wear a mask while he is in my car. Also, I'm not sure that I should insist that he wear one while riding with me. I can see myself rolling down the windows in the 90 degree humid weather and leaning my head that way out the window. ....I hope that he just wants to wear a mask. Whoa is me...

I've had to have that convo with a couple of people. I just said -"hey, we're coming from outside each others bubble, let's mask up and roll down the windows while we ride together." Easy.

[::: :::]

Going fishing tonight on Key Biscayne with a H.S. and lifelong buddy who I see twice a year when I am in FL. He lives in Miami. While I don't think that I have COVID, and I am sure he does not think that he has COVID, I feel a bit wierd that I want him to wear a mask while he is in my car. Also, I'm not sure that I should insist that he wear one while riding with me. I can see myself rolling down the windows in the 90 degree humid weather and leaning my head that way out the window. ....I hope that he just wants to wear a mask. Whoa is me...

i've been doing self-drive for outings with buddies this summer
kinda obnoxious on fuel costs & low social factor during the drive, but worth it
& the fishing is still social

[glademaster]

Tell him to drive his own ass there and meet you. There's no way in hell I would let anyone ride in the car with me now or for the foreseeable future.

[Bunion 2020]

I spoke with the Superintendent of the crew that had their brush with the Covid.

MT Guideline is, more than 15 minutes inside with an infected host and less than 6' of distance, be concerned and quarantine.

I was about 5 minutes in their job trailer and about 6 feet away.

The guy who won the Covid prize is in his late 20s and from what I was told, sick as hell.

Playing golf with a couple of buddies tomorrow, I will walk and pull while they ride. We will all drive separate.

Interesting times but I prefer to walk.

[eldereldo]

Tell him to drive his own ass there and meet you. There's no way in hell I would let anyone ride in the car with me now or for the foreseeable future.

This, best friend lives across the highway from me, we golf most weeks, we are driving our separate cars. Only person who rides in a vehicle with me, is my wife.

[stayhighstaydry]

If someone cannot respect your concerns, they are not a true friend.

[whyturn]

If someone cannot respect your concerns, they are not a true friend.

^^^^^This


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[altasnob]

From NY Times on Sturgis:

“Screw Covid I went to Sturgis,” read a black T-shirt amid a sea of Harley Davidson and Trump 2020 outfits sported by the throng of people walking along Main Street. Their gear did not include face masks, and social distancing guidelines were completely ignored.

Nelson Horsley, 26, of Rapid City, S.D., said he expects there will be a rise in coronavirus cases in the area once the rally concludes next weekend. But he said he didn’t feel the need to wear a mask while walking around downtown Friday afternoon. He compared the virus to getting the seasonal flu.“I haven’t seen anyone out here wear a mask so it kind of feels like it defeats the purpose,” he said, to wear a mask himself.

While Gov. Kristi Noem, a Republican, encouraged people to attend the rally 60% of the town wanted to postpone it. 250,000 expected to attend, which is half the normal attendance.

https://nyti.ms/3gGmKkJ