The Ethics of Outdorr Recreation in Times of COVID-19

[old goat]

I've voiced my irritation with that study in the other thread and won't go into huge detail here, but (speaking as someone who has done a few tests of flow through semi-porous objects, if credentials matter) that technique seems almost designed to generate bad data. Which the 110% number is, as they indicate with huge error bars (far bigger than 10%--any undergrad lab student should see those and conclude that small sample/big variation is a better explanation than all that hand waving they came up with).

Or consider that they only measure a plane right in front of the speaker: the poorest fitting/leakiest mask, made from the highest resistance material will always flow the least particles through that plane. Because the rest will go around through any gaps they can find, which are completely unmeasured. This likely makes the N95 look better than it is (especially if it's poorly fitted), but certainly makes the difference between that and a buff (which seals well but flows freely) look far bigger than it is.

Better masks need better science.

Since the post you've quoted I've posted about additional research in several threads which shows the effectiveness of a doubled neck gaiter. Not a large or definitive study by any means, but certainly worth of consideration. If there is a ski season I plan to wear a doubled neck gaiter. I've also ordered a Buff made with Gore Wind Stop, which I might do my own experiments with. I couldn't find any info on the pore size in Wind Stop.

Here's an article about the study. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/w...ers-masks.html

It's not just neck gaiters that need better research. Seems like there should be a national standard, either by the govt or an independent testing agency, for what constitutes an adequate mask, and mask makers should be able to have their masks certified as meeting the standard. I'm not holding my breath, and neither is my mask.

[concretejungle]

I’m going to try outdoor recreation on Tuesday, at Timberline. Birthday skiing.

Between my beard, which makes a buff non-workable, and my helmet, which will need to be removed to put on or take off an over-the-ear mask, I need to find a workable style of mask...

A buff.

[~mikey b]

you can get a buff over your beard

[glademaster]

How do you manage to keep a buff in place so it covers your nose for more than 7 seconds before sliding off it? That's my issue with them.

[concretejungle]

How do you manage to keep a buff in place so it covers your nose for more than 7 seconds before sliding off it? That's my issue with them.

I found it has to be way up on top of my head. I wore one instead of a mask at work one day and it was a pita so I went back to a mask.

[whyturn]

How do you manage to keep a buff in place so it covers your nose for more than 7 seconds before sliding off it? That's my issue with them.

As I pull it up over nose I go to eyebrows and double fold over the top part of my nose. I learned this trick from motorcycle riding. Just has to be a little looser by mouth or it’s to tight and pulls


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[jono]

My technique sounds like the reverse of that: pull the tube over my head until it hits my neck, then fold the front of the other end down. One layer on the back, two layers on the front.

Pretty sure I learned that from the Head Gaitor package in about '89 or so.

[jono]

Since the post you've quoted I've posted about additional research in several threads which shows the effectiveness of a doubled neck gaiter. Not a large or definitive study by any means, but certainly worth of consideration. If there is a ski season I plan to wear a doubled neck gaiter. I've also ordered a Buff made with Gore Wind Stop, which I might do my own experiments with. I couldn't find any info on the pore size in Wind Stop.

Here's an article about the study. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/w...ers-masks.html

It's not just neck gaiters that need better research. Seems like there should be a national standard, either by the govt or an independent testing agency, for what constitutes an adequate mask, and mask makers should be able to have their masks certified as meeting the standard. I'm not holding my breath, and neither is my mask.

Yeah I think my post seemed a little more targeted at yours than I intended, sorry about that. My irritation with the Duke people is that while their hearts are in the right place it seems like a case of falling in love with a technology rather than designing a good test. It would have been very excusable in April, but we should be doing better by now. From the NYT article:

“Our intent was for this technology to get out there so companies and organizations can test their own masks,” Dr. Fischer said. “A mask doesn’t have to be perfect for it to work.”

Unfortunately, for tests to work they kind of do have to be perfect: they have to avoid meaningful flaws.

I'm not trying to advocate for gaitors, though. I've been using one to reduce moisture loss as much as anything else, and I'm not so sure that's a plus for stopping virus. Agreed that better testing is needed. It should probably start with filtration efficiency and adjust to become more specific, easier and cheaper.

[altasnob]

Too many crowds and drunken teenagers have caused the national park and forest service to close a good chunk of Olympic National Park here in Washington. The closure takes away a major access point for trails from Staircase trail head, as well as a large vehicle campground in the park. Sucks. Seems like we can expect more big brother heavy handed closures, at least until the weather turns:

https://komonews.com/news/local/publ...o-overcrowding

[phatty]

Too many crowds and drunken teenagers have caused the national park and forest service to close a good chunk of Olympic National Park here in Washington. The closure takes away a major access point for trails from Staircase trail head, as well as a large vehicle campground in the park. Sucks. Seems like we can expect more big brother heavy handed closures, at least until the weather turns:

https://komonews.com/news/local/publ...o-overcrowding

Was out there camping last weekend and it was absolutely insane. The boat launch is closed so everyone is parking on the road and trying to put tubes, SUPs, kayaks, etc. in. We felt pretty uncomfortable and left the lake after a couple hours. The traffic was totally nuts.

[Name Redacted]

Probably a lot of kids taking a year off from school to go be a ski bum this season. Might be beneficial to the ski area in terms of laborers:

https://www.vaildaily.com/news/eagle...-resort-towns/

[AK47bp]

Probably a lot of kids taking a year off from school to go be a ski bum this season. Might be beneficial to the ski area in terms of laborers:

https://www.vaildaily.com/news/eagle...-resort-towns/

Or attempting to flood the backcountry areas when the resorts have limited operations. This coming winter may be a human triggered avalanchapalooza.




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[mall walker]

How do you manage to keep a buff in place so it covers your nose for more than 7 seconds before sliding off it? That's my issue with them.

in the winter I wear one ski touring and usually have the back edge on top of my head, and then under my helmet. the back stays up there, but the buff is loose enough I can comfortably drop it below my chin if I get hot. with a baseball hat, bike helmet, etc I imagine you could get the same effect. the cotton buffs are much more forgiving in this respect stretch wise, ime

eta: obviously this is for outdoor recreation, this would be annoying af in the supermarket or whatnot

[anotherVTskibum]

Or attempting to flood the backcountry areas when the resorts have limited operations. This coming winter may be a human triggered avalanchapalooza.

Not to mention a SARapalooza.

Around the time most resorts shut down in New England, the USFS closed the most popular alpine terrain to all use. I wouldn't see doing so for the duration of next winter as a particularly reasonable approach, but I also wonder if failing to do so is going to result in a shitshow of epic proportions. I mean, the area in question is usually a shitshow on good-weather weekend days in the spring, so it's not a huge stretch, but if it gets that busy in winter conditions I'd expect the impacts of questionable decision-making to be larger.

[hatchgreenchile]

Please continue pushing the myth that backcountry n00bs are the ones getting buried.
It's one my favorite TGR takes.

[mall walker]

Please continue pushing the myth that backcountry n00bs are the ones getting buried.
It's one my favorite TGR takes.

noobs make bad skintracks and stand around in big gloms looking gaperific, and then the old codgers who think they own the hill get mad, wander off and go and get themselves caught in a slide. the circle of life.

[schindlerpiste]

Skiing 2021:
This winter, while all resorts have a philosophy or plan for spinning lifts, unless the FDA approves a vaccine that becomes available to the general public, we will see confusion, at best, and and potentially widespread ski area COVID hotspots. In short, skier's are in for a shit show for the ages. However, not all is lost. We can still go out and have fun in the snow. True, the world is changing and skiing in 2021 will be very different for me. I am trying to put things into perspective to determine what will provide me with the best on snow experience.
I love resorts, and all they have to offer. Whether it is riding lifts with interesting people, or family/friends, railing groomers, negotiating trees, bouncing off moguls, or schralpping pow fields and/chutes, resorts have always been fun. We all know that this year, more and more people will be venturing off the beaten path and skiing out of bounds, and throughout the side and backcountry. Things will be more crowded, and more dangerous. It may not be all that much fun all of the time.
It is important to keep in mind the reason why we love skiing, and for whatever reason, we love it for the thrill of be outdoors and breathing in the fresh air that the mountains have to offer. To get my fix, in addition to spending time at the resorts until it is no longer a viable option, I will be spending a lot of time digging pits, performing compression tests, hand shear tests, some extended column tests, all with the goal of learning more about the snowpack. For the first time, I will take a notebook with me, and log snow conditions. Sure, my downhill time may decrease, but I will still stay in good shape, spend a lot of time on the snow, enjoy the solitude of nature and improve my mental health. This is not only for backcountry novices. No matter how much time spent ski touring, most people can never learn too much about the snowpack and surrounding conditions. Of course, it would be nice if all those new to skiing away from resorts signed up for an Avi. 1 course, and learned how to perform snow tests and be responsible backcountry skiers. Perspectivism and the ethics of outdoor recreation dictate that this is wise. This year is a year to stay safe, improve our knowledge of the snow while spending time away from the resorts, and not suffering from anxiety while doing the thing that we love. I can't wait.

[The SnowShow]

^^* well said.

[hatchgreenchile]

I don't know what the winter will bring, but I'll try to make the best of it either way.
I'm punting on all big resort visits - sticking with Silverton, GEMS and backcountry in between.
Bring on the snow!

[hutash]

Yeah, we will just have to wait and see what this season will bring. Not skiing at a resort will not be the end of the world, and as noted brings some other blessings as well. I have a yurt trip planned, so even if I can't hit the resort I will get in some good skiing, not to mention just getting out for day tours. I may even get back into some cross country skiing, which is really were I started from all those years ago. Just hanging out in the mountains is what is important to me.

[gimpy]

soooooo......will we be shamed or not for skiing in the bc this fall/winter?.......or do we just keep doing it without talking about it like last spring?

[old goat]

soooooo......will we be shamed or not for skiing in the bc this fall/winter?.......or do we just keep doing it without talking about it like last spring?

No

[Kinnikinnick]

If we go back to a place where local fiefdoms try to lockout access to public lands, I will not obey any of it. All because people couldnt take prudent precautions in their regular lives and not have parties, wear masks, etc.





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