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  1. #51
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasatch
    Posts
    5,814
    My camox Freebirds in 183 are like 1600 g and very stable for fall and spring


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I need to go to Utah.
    Utah?
    Yeah, Utah. It's wedged in between Wyoming and Nevada. You've seen pictures of it, right?

    So after 15 years we finally made it to Utah.....


    Thanks BCSAR and POWMOW Ski Patrol for rescues

    8, 17, 13, 18, 16, 18, 20, 19, 16

    2018/2019 (24/32)

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Wasatch Back: 7000'
    Posts
    10,004
    ...add TX98 to the mix
    ďA society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.Ē
    ― Milton Friedman

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    2,145
    Quote Originally Posted by N1CK. View Post
    How stiff does that 95 feel? The last BD ski I tried was a noodle, but the 95 or even 104 Helio caught my attention for a lighter, narrower touring ski.
    Not a noodle. I'd say medium+. Not as stiff as the ZeroG by a touch but much damper.

    This is for the Helio Carbon. I understand the Helio Recon is damper (and a bit heavier). Who knows why they used such similar names - bound to confuse. Personally, I would go Recon layup for a daily driver but I prefer heavier damper skis for this use. The 95 is strictly a big-day or spring/summer ski for me, so that's why I went Carbon.

    Blizzard has been making BD skis for the last few years - they are WAY better than they used to be.


    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    812

    Damp, stable and somewhat light at ~95mm: What touring ski am I?

    Fondled pretty much all the skis on my list at the local shop. Prices are around $549-$699CDN ($400-$525US) for most of last years models.

    Did not get to fondle any 4FRNT Ravens, but Iíve had lots of 4FRNTs (and New Ravens are coming up at $840CDN on the 4FRNT site...though you can take 12% off that as they donít charge tax shipping to Canada).

    Volvo Blaze looked good ($799 for 106 and $749 for 94). And the 2020 Armada Tracer 98 ($549cdn) at 1575gm is interesting. Looks a little more playful than the other tgríish dedicated bc skis. The tail is not quite as flat. Still flattish though.

    Anyone put a Salomon MTNs or Fritschi Tectons on Tracer 98s?
    Last edited by kc_7777; 09-13-2020 at 01:03 PM.
    _________________________________________________
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  5. #55
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by kc_7777 View Post
    Fondled pretty much all the skis on my list at the local shop. Prices are around $549-$699CDN ($400-$525US) for most of last years models.

    Did not get to fondle any 4FRNT Ravens, but I’ve had lots of 4FRNTs (and New Ravens are coming up at $840CDN on the 4FRNT site...though you can take 12% off that as they don’t charge tax shipping to Canada).

    Volvo Blaze looked good ($799 for 106 and $749 for 94). And the 2020 Armada Tracer 98 ($549cdn) at 1575gm is interesting. Looks a little more playful than the other tgr’ish dedicated bc skis. The tail is not quite as flat. Still flattish though.

    Anyone put a Salomon MTNs on Tracer 98s?
    Are you in the Whistler area? I have a 10% 4FRNT discount code I probably won't use, so feel free to hit me up if you end up going that route.

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    812

    Damp, stable and somewhat light at ~95mm: What touring ski am I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jongle View Post
    Are you in the Whistler area? I have a 10% 4FRNT discount code I probably won't use, so feel free to hit me up if you end up going that route.
    Am in North Van....thinking I may go Tracer or Volkl Blaze with Salomon MTNs. But thx!
    Last edited by kc_7777; 09-12-2020 at 05:05 PM.
    _________________________________________________
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  7. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    31
    This thread has me considering the Blaze 94s for myself, anybody know where the recommended mount point is? I called Volkl and they told me they didn't know (lol). The only info I can find is the Blister review of the Blaze 106 which has a mount of -11.9cm, and nothing for the 94

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    812

    Damp, stable and somewhat light at ~95mm: What touring ski am I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benneke10 View Post
    This thread has me considering the Blaze 94s for myself, anybody know where the recommended mount point is? I called Volkl and they told me they didn't know (lol). The only info I can find is the Blister review of the Blaze 106 which has a mount of -11.9cm, and nothing for the 94
    I read -11 or so based on blister but also read it has +1 and +2 lines. Iíll try to get an exact measure at the shop again this week.

    Seriously considering the Blaze now too. Vs Raven or Tracer. Even considering the Blaze 106 (??? gm in a 179cm?) vs the 94 now?
    Last edited by kc_7777; 09-13-2020 at 10:21 AM.
    _________________________________________________
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  9. #59
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    15
    Smooth Operator, the Vwerks Mantra is stiff in bending and very stiff in torsion for its weight. This is typical of Volkl. When compared with the Zero G 95, and beside the large mass difference, it is about 50% stiffer in torsion. The Zero G 95 uses a lot of unidirectional carbon fiber, which allows it to have a high bending stiffness but doesn't do anything about the torsional stiffness. More torsional stiffness creates feelings of increases edge grip, increased "precision" (vs playfullness) and dampness when skidding (at the beginning of almost every turn). Tip torsional stiffness is related to ice performance. Bending stiffness and camber determine the "preload" pressure on the tip and tail, which dictate at what speed the tip/tail start flapping around (i.e., speed limit). You can have too much or too little of each of these specs. You have to find what works for you...

    The MTN 95 is much softer in torsion (50%) and in bending (25%). The Armada Traver 98 is however very similar in its average bending/torsional stiffness, as you can see on the graphs below :
    * note that we are mixing some data from the Tracer 98 2019 and 2020... they are not the same ski...
    * note that the stiffnesses and weight can change with length... unfortunately we don't have all length in our database

    (well, I don't seem to be able to post images... send me a PM is you want them)

    The Tracer 98 has however some differences: it has more camber, a more upturn tail, less tip bending stiffness and less tip/tail torsional stiffness.

    Other skis might have similar blend of bending and torsional stiffness as the VW Mantra. However, the Tracer 98 is the closest fit I can find in our database of 1000ish skis (or the women version, the Trace, which is only slightly softer). The Cassiar Alchemist 94 is also a close fit (but probably not cheaper) as is also the Helios 105 (which is however wider and lighter)... Hope this help a bit!

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Squaw valley
    Posts
    3,014
    How does the vwerks katanas compare in stiffness, both longitudinally and torsionally?

    I find they do a good job at speed on firm, much better than the mtn explore 95 i had.

    Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    How does the vwerks katanas compare in stiffness, both longitudinally and torsionally?

    I find they do a good job at speed on firm, much better than the mtn explore 95 i had.

    Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk
    I only have the 184 from 2015 in the database, which is much longer than the longest MTN Explore 95 I have (177). The geometry of the Katanas VW 2015 is different from all these other skis by being larger with long tip/tail rockers. The mount point of the Katanas VW is also reward of the Mantra VW. When compared to the Mantra VW 2020, the longer Katanas 2015 is about 20% stiffer in bending stiffness at the center but almost 2x stiffer in front and behind the binding (and equal at the tips/tails). Torsionally, it is about 20-30% stiffer all over except for end of the tip/tail. Torsionally, the 184 Katanas from 2015 is about 3x stiffer than the 177 MTN 95 from 2020. They are quite different skis!

    Not all companies scales stiffness the same way with length (some do, some don't do much, some do it for some length but not other length, some scale more than others), so you have to be careful with these numbers. However, 10-30% per length bump is typical. So both the Katanas VW 2015 and Mantra VW 2020 could be quite close in stiffnesses for the same length...

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    15
    Trying to post the first graph of EI vs mass.
    * There are two Armada Tracer 98 180... we measured them at two different occasions. It gives you an idea of the repeatability of the manufacturing and the measurements.
    Name:  EIvsMass.png
Views: 264
Size:  68.1 KB

  13. #63
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    15
    Well, it seems like it is working when I post one at a time. Here it is for average torsional stiffness (GJ) vs m:

    Name:  GJvsMass.png
Views: 263
Size:  67.6 KB
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by alude; 09-14-2020 at 05:48 AM. Reason: Wrong graph selected...

  14. #64
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    15
    This is average torsional stiffness (GJ) vs average bending stiffness (EI). You can kind of see how different compagnies are scaling EI and GJ with length for the cases when we have different length...

    Attachment 340135

  15. #65
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    15
    Finally, the detailed measurement of the distribution of these properties along the length of the ski.

    Although the main difference between all these skis is the torsional stiffness (almost 3x), it is good to check on these more detailed graphs to identify the more subtles differences between these skis. When compared to the VW Mantra, the Tracer 98 has more camber, a more upturn tail, less tip bending stiffness and less tip/tail torsional stiffness. Note that on that graph, the VW Mantra was measured with a Kingpin binding, which creates small bumps in the bending stiffness around the toe and heel pieces. It doesn't really affects the torsional stiffness however.

    Enjoy! ;-)


    Name:  Distribution.png
Views: 207
Size:  51.5 KB

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Swiss alps
    Posts
    578
    Very cool data, thanks for sharing!

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    西 雅 圖
    Posts
    3,613
    Good stuff, alude, thanks!

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Gaperville, CO
    Posts
    4,247
    These graphics and stats are dope. Would love to see more!

  19. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    812

    Damp, stable and somewhat light at ~95mm: What touring ski am I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benneke10 View Post
    This thread has me considering the Blaze 94s for myself, anybody know where the recommended mount point is? I called Volkl and they told me they didn't know (lol). The only info I can find is the Blister review of the Blaze 106 which has a mount of -11.9cm, and nothing for the 94
    Was in the ski shop again today with my soft tape measure.

    Both the 179cm Blaze 106 and the 179cm Blaze 94 measure 180cm along their base? Did not do a straight pull.

    There are three "lines" on the ski for boot center....front one is -11, then -12 and -13. So I guess Blister was looking at the center mark at -11.9 (-12)? I was shocked. So far back. I stood on the ski with my foot center on the front line and it was a big tip for what I'm used to. But still an interesting ski, I dis like the look of the really long gradual tip rocker.....but f u on the mount positions Volkl??

    Blaze 106 (pencil is at -11 mark):
    Name:  BLaze 106.jpg
Views: 151
Size:  24.0 KB
    Last edited by kc_7777; 09-14-2020 at 04:33 PM.
    _________________________________________________
    I love big dumps.

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    31
    Many thanks for measuring! Looks like a great ski but thats too far back for me, really appreciate the info!

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    812
    Quote Originally Posted by Benneke10 View Post
    Many thanks for measuring! Looks like a great ski but thats too far back for me, really appreciate the info!
    No problem. I was in there picking up my new (last years) Dynastar Menace Proto 118s.

    Weird to be wearing a mask as you talk skis. But everyone in the shop had one on.

    Re the Volkl Blaze 106 and 94. They measured exactly the same. I was totally turned off by the far back mount point too. I donít get -12 ish mounts.

    Iím a -5cm to -7cm for my inbound skis.

    Can see a -7cm to -8.5cm mount on a dedicated bc ski with Salomon MTNs or Tectons. But -11 to -13 is far.

    A bc ski that did turn me on today was the Dynastar Mythic 97. It has 3 mount lines...-8.5, -9.5,-10.5? Big ass tips would float. Felt light but strong.

    Fondled the Armada Tracer 98 again. Didnít seem as intriguing. Does not look like a bc ski. Would be a good ski for Shifts.

    Salomon MTN Explore 95, Faction Prime 2, Blizzard Zero G 95 all got some of my love too.

    Back to reading the internet.

    K
    _________________________________________________
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  22. #72
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    168
    Quote Originally Posted by kc_7777 View Post
    No problem. I was in there picking up my new (last years) Dynastar Menace Proto 118s.

    Weird to be wearing a mask as you talk skis. But everyone in the shop had one on.

    Re the Volkl Blaze 106 and 94. They measured exactly the same. I was totally turned off by the far back mount point too. I donít get -12 ish mounts.

    Iím a -5cm to -7cm for my inbound skis.

    Can see a -7cm to -8.5cm mount on a dedicated bc ski with Salomon MTNs or Tectons. But -11 to -13 is far.

    A bc ski that did turn me on today was the Dynastar Mythic 97. It has 3 mount lines...-8.5, -9.5,-10.5? Big ass tips would float. Felt light but strong.

    Fondled the Armada Tracer 98 again. Didnít seem as intriguing. Does not look like a bc ski. Would be a good ski for Shifts.

    Salomon MTN Explore 95, Faction Prime 2, Blizzard Zero G 95 all got some of my love too.

    Back to reading the internet.

    K
    I thought the raven was the total outlier on your initial list, for waist width, rocker profile and mount point. Having just read this though, I think it should be high on your list. Also maybe the vision 98?

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    812

    Damp, stable and somewhat light at ~95mm: What touring ski am I?

    Ya Ravens....have almost bought that ski a number of times.
    Have owned Rens, InThaynes, Devs, Hojis....was trying to branch out. Haha

    Will probably end up there anyways. Donít want a 177cm Raven as they ski short. And donít want a 184cm Raven for the skin track (as Iím 170cm tall). All my skis 180cm ish? Line Vision 98 a good call.

    Gonna wait for a bit. Wondering if the new 4FRNT owners will dump 4FRNT skis at New Years again? Thx
    Last edited by kc_7777; 09-14-2020 at 07:29 PM.
    _________________________________________________
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  24. #74
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Alta
    Posts
    784
    Quote Originally Posted by kc_7777 View Post
    Ya Ravens....have almost bought that ski a number of times.
    Have owned Rens, InThaynes, Devs, Hojis....was trying to branch out. Haha

    Will probably end up there anyways. Donít want a 177cm Raven as they ski short. And donít want a 184cm Raven for the skin track (as Iím 170cm tall). All my skis 180cm ish? Line Vision 98 a good call.

    Gonna wait for a bit. Wondering if the new 4FRNT owners will dump 4FRNT skis at New Years again? Thx
    Just buy the 184 ren. Itís easy on the skin track and if those are the skis you skied and liked itís exactly what youíre looking for. Itís a really really good ski in just about every condition youíll encounter in the backcountry.


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  25. #75
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    168
    Quote Originally Posted by altacoup View Post
    Just buy the 184 ren. Itís easy on the skin track and if those are the skis you skied and liked itís exactly what youíre looking for. Itís a really really good ski in just about every condition youíll encounter in the backcountry.


    Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums
    I like how we went from ~95 mm to 104 mm to 122mm width skis in three posts.

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