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  1. #426
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    May 2020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melee View Post
    Shimming to zero delta gives you an insane stack height. So 7.5mm is a great compromise.
    You have to look at all the variables. If zero was a better option we would have done that but I guess thatís just marketing speak! You totally caught me!
    Not sure why people are so irked by your efforts to bring a binding with awesome features and a reduced ramp out of the box, but people are always gonna be unhappy somehow.

    I for one appreciate the effort and if I was in the market for a binding currently. The Voyager would be on my coin flip list.

    Keep up the good work Luke

  2. #427
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    Mar 2006
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    992
    I was asked by beder about replacing existing Shifts with Freeraider 14's using the same bsl, in this case 305mm. I thought I'd post the reply as others may be interested. Here's the two sets of mounting locations, both marked using the factory jigs positioned on the mounting line. As you can see there's no problem at the toe but there is at the heel. The front heel holes have 10mm centre to centre longitudinal seperation but there's only a mm of seperation between the rear heel holes.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The ATK jig positions the heel pretty much in the middle of its 25mm length adjustment range so to miss the existing Shift holes there's just enough adjustment to mount the FR14 heel rearward to get sufficient clearance (10mm c-t-c) and then move the heel turret forward in its track to the proper location. For a dual inserts mount the rear locations are going to be very close as I like 16mm c-t-c on those and there's not enough length adjustment in the FR14 heel to get that - but I'm usually ok with that if it's on a ski with a meaty core.

    I've done this Shift/FR14 combination as a dual insert mount on the same ski a couple of times this month but both were on new skis so mounting the Shift heel forward 6/7mm made getting the necessary seperation easy to achieve.

    The usual caveat of 'dummy mount first' applies.

  3. #428
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    Feb 2007
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    Idaho
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    984
    Wow, above and beyond Jon. Thanks a million.

  4. #429
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    Dec 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sargentdrufus View Post
    Not sure why people are so irked by your efforts to bring a binding with awesome features and a reduced ramp out of the box, but people are always gonna be unhappy somehow.

    I for one appreciate the effort and if I was in the market for a binding currently. The Voyager would be on my coin flip list.

    Keep up the good work Luke
    I agree, that bringing the binder into the country is a good thing, and as I mentioned above, Luke is to be applauded for this.

    I can however, get really grumpy when I read market bullshit (as if he reconciled Quantum Mechanics & General Relativity), when all he did was to say: "hey ATK, can ya increase the toe base plate height by 4mm?".

    If Moment didn't have such a good reputation around here, market talk like the above would have me running in the opposite direction.

    Maybe Luke is smarter than me (likely) and has his finger on the pulse of the intelligence of the average American consumer.

    He probably does ;-)

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  5. #430
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    Sep 2009
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    Now we know how to rile up Thom: threaten to take away his homemade tech risers
    life ain't guaranteed, love your people while you can

  6. #431
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    Oct 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    I agree, that bringing the binder into the country is a good thing, and as I mentioned above, Luke is to be applauded for this.

    I can however, get really grumpy when I read market bullshit (as if he reconciled Quantum Mechanics & General Relativity), when all he did was to say: "hey ATK, can ya increase the toe base plate height by 4mm?".

    If Moment didn't have such a good reputation around here, market talk like the above would have me running in the opposite direction.

    Maybe Luke is smarter than me (likely) and has his finger on the pulse of the intelligence of the average American consumer.

    He probably does ;-)

    ... Thom
    Hey man, pretty sure you do manufacturing too. You know there's more to it than just asking to bump that thickness up a little bit please.


    And there is something to say for an integrated riser. Since people do complain about having to shim bindings, why not integrate the shim? Yeah shims aren't the most complicated things but it's still a small hassle.

    I'm not the biggest fan of marketing talk either, but they do need to sell the bindings they committed to having built for them. And people who hang out in tech talk are probably not representative of anyone's customers

  7. #432
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    Can anyone quantify how mo better the ramp angle adjustment made their skiing?
    The moment cats have been great to me
    I'm stoked to send them monies for a pair
    But I've had no problem with the ramp angle since they 1st came out
    I really couldn't tell a difference with the stomp pad vrs without
    I puts it on cause it made pin protection sense
    But I'm not the techiest tech
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    Yo poliassfuckers
    theres a special basement for your lame shit

  8. #433
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    Sep 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    Can anyone quantify how mo better the ramp angle adjustment made their skiing?
    The moment cats have been great to me
    I'm stoked to send them monies for a pair
    But I've had no problem with the ramp angle since they 1st came out
    I really couldn't tell a difference with the stomp pad vrs without
    I puts it on cause it made pin protection sense
    But I'm not the techiest tech
    I'm good with a delta of about 10mm or less. And if I'm skiing powder I don't care much at all. But on hard snow with too much ramp it feels like the ski's sweet spot is shrunk down to nothing.

    I first notice with Plum guides which have a silly difference in height between toe and heel pins. Added a 6mm toe shim and I could suddenly ski well again.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using TGR Forums mobile app

  9. #434
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    Yeah I'm picky about it, too. Not just on firm, but in crusts or variable grabby shit as well. It puts your CG too far forward on the ski, so the ass has to go back to balance.

    This effect was most pronounced on a set of skis in which I had inserts for Pivots (~7mm) and Vertical FT12 (~16mm). Switching between really made me hate the higher ramp and I aim to hit that 7 or 8 mm delta now with everything.
    life ain't guaranteed, love your people while you can

  10. #435
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    Apr 2005
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    So youse are saying I could be a 3+
    Sold
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    Yo poliassfuckers
    theres a special basement for your lame shit

  11. #436
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    Oct 2016
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    tahoe de chingao
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    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    I first notice with Plum guides which have a silly difference in height between toe and heel pins. Added a 6mm toe shim and I could suddenly ski well again.
    yup plums were the first time i understood the whole ramp thing.

    SFB - you'll know there's a problem if there is one. If you don't feel it, don't sweat it. For me, it was like damn, i don't like these skis. wait a minute, i liked the exact same shape inbounds, what's going on here....massive forum digging...ramp angle...shims

  12. #437
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    Oct 2009
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    Ha

  13. #438
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    May 2020
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    How much can your boot also effect ramp angle? I'm not talking boot board ramp. Would different boots in the same binding have the same ramp or different based on their heel and toe thickness and sole rocker/shape?

    If I don't feel there is any issue should I even worry about shimming toes?

  14. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sargentdrufus View Post
    How much can your boot also effect ramp angle? I'm not talking boot board ramp. Would different boots in the same binding have the same ramp or different based on their heel and toe thickness and sole rocker/shape?

    If I don't feel there is any issue should I even worry about shimming toes?
    Different boots can be very very different. If you donít feel any issue why bother?

  15. #440
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    May 2020
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliBrit View Post
    Different boots can be very very different. If you don’t feel any issue why bother?
    That was my thinking as well.

  16. #441
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    I'm looking to pick up a pair of BD Helio 200s or BD Helio 200 LTs. Anyone know the heal/toe stack height difference of each of them? I understand that the LTs have less because they have no length adjustability, but wondering if the regular 200s will be workable for me since I'm a bit sensitive to ramp angle (I much prefer flat or nearly flat bindings).

  17. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevo View Post
    I'm looking to pick up a pair of BD Helio 200s or BD Helio 200 LTs. Anyone know the heal/toe stack height difference of each of them? I understand that the LTs have less because they have no length adjustability, but wondering if the regular 200s will be workable for me since I'm a bit sensitive to ramp angle (I much prefer flat or nearly flat bindings).
    https://skimo.co/pin-heights
    life ain't guaranteed, love your people while you can

  18. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norseman View Post
    Thanks! Looks like the 200 is less than Kingpins, which weren't too much delta for me.

  19. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    I'm good with a delta of about 10mm or less. And if I'm skiing powder I don't care much at all. But on hard snow with too much ramp it feels like the ski's sweet spot is shrunk down to nothing.

    I first notice with Plum guides which have a silly difference in height between toe and heel pins. Added a 6mm toe shim and I could suddenly ski well again.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using TGR Forums mobile app
    Same here.
    Delta > 10mm means you need a very upright boot (lean angle 12 degrees or less, does that even exist out of the box) or you end be so far over your tips that it becomes really challenging to ski fast in hard snow without getting some weird hang ups from driving too hard from the tip while the tail is just floating about in a vague manner. Even is powder it can be challenging if the ski doesn't have a fair bit of early rise. It makes me feel like I'm on shorter skis than I want.
    Stack on the other hand is a non issue in soft snow and in hard snow it's always seemed to be beneficial (for angulation particularly) so shimming toes is by far the easiest and cheapest way to fix any tech binding.
    Yo mama's so fat her patronus is cake

  20. #445
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    Gee who cameup with the whole shim yer toe thing ?

    I never do
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  21. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevo View Post
    I'm looking to pick up a pair of BD Helio 200s or BD Helio 200 LTs. Anyone know the heal/toe stack height difference of each of them? I understand that the LTs have less because they have no length adjustability, but wondering if the regular 200s will be workable for me since I'm a bit sensitive to ramp angle (I much prefer flat or nearly flat bindings).
    My post #1 in this thread has that info. It's not up to date with respect to this years' models, but yeah ... minimal ramp (8mm) on the Helio 200s (Haute Routes) and about 3mm when you remove the 5.5mm adjuster plate.

    I like skimo's methodology (referencing the pin locations to measure it), but I think they got an intern to do some of their measuring ;-)

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  22. #447
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    Mar 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    Gee who cameup with the whole shim yer toe thing ?

    I never do
    I've been shimming toes for 30 years. In the early years it was just racers getting fully dialled-in but that moved in to the recreational market around the early 2000's. On your side of the pond I know that Steve Bagley at Snowbird and Bud Heisman in Reno were doing it back then.

    As has been said above, for many it's just not an issue - and if you're one of those then great/lucky for you - but there's a good proportion of skiers for which it is a huge help. Alpine bindings have been pretty low delta for years now (0-6mm) and early tech bindings had huge delta (15-17mm) but now with 'freeriders' seeking the same level of downhill performance out of their boots/tech bindings that they get out of their alpine kit the subject of delta angles has moved in to the tech binding market as well.

  23. #448
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    Dec 2004
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    I still remember when I learned about binding delta and toe shimming, during an evening presentation by:
    http://www.thebootguys.com
    ... on December 14 of 1998 during a PSIA race clinic (conducted by a really good coach, who essentially got kicked out of PSIA for being a really good coach) at Stratton.
    Seemed totally counterintuitive.
    But the next morning, after some jerryrigging, top of a GS course on North American (now Frank's Fall Line), all those years of "Get More Forward" were now accomplished, wow.
    Many of the racers on the team I was coaching at the time were also transformed.
    Other, "uh, yeah, coach, um, I guess it's better, I dunno."
    When I asked the boot guy about this the next year, he replied that, "some people are proprioceptively dead."
    For those stuck in the Northeast, check out the NE Rando Race Series and my avalanche course. (For other avalanche course providers anywhere, feel free to use any of my "homework" assignments for your own courses too.)

  24. #449
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    355
    The first reference I know of about shimming toes was in Warren Witherell's book The Athletic Skier. He talked very negatively about bindings that were higher in the heel. IIRC, the higher heel came about only because of the need to accommodate brakes. So it's certainly not a recent concept as brakes started to appear in the mid seventies.

    This a very individual thing, for some it doesn't matter for some it matters a little, and for some it's extremely important.

    Pretty sure most race bindings are flat or close to it.

    The Tech binding thing brought it dramatically to light as 15mm+ heel heights are higher than any alpine binding ever was. I think the highest Alpine delta is +9 with most probably +5.

  25. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    My post #1 in this thread has that info. It's not up to date with respect to this years' models, but yeah ... minimal ramp (8mm) on the Helio 200s (Haute Routes) and about 3mm when you remove the 5.5mm adjuster plate.

    I like skimo's methodology (referencing the pin locations to measure it), but I think they got an intern to do some of their measuring ;-)

    ... Thom
    Cool. I just ordered some 4.7MM shims and associated scews (8x18mm pozi #1) from SkiMo to cut down on that delta. 8mm isn't much, but I think I'll prefer 3.3mm

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