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  1. #2076
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Maine Coast
    Posts
    4,617
    Reminder as you get ready for the season, your atk heels like some lubrication

  2. #2077
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,412
    Quote Originally Posted by Adrgha View Post
    Does anyone know if the AL12 toe shim fits the C-Raider 12? Or is it only for the ordinary R's and FR's? I see it has two different hole patterns.

    Edit: Contacted ATK, and no, the AL12 does not fit the C-Raider. They do not have any shims that fit that toe piece.
    I looked at this about a year ago. AL12 does not c-raider fit directly. Someone in this thread cut or ground off the lip and used them. I chose not to do that because the toe locking mechanism is left unsupported which I did not like.
    Apparently B&D make and sell shims for c-raider in three different thicknesses but i havenít tried them yet.

  3. #2078
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,412
    Quote Originally Posted by Adrgha View Post
    Does anyone know if the AL12 toe shim fits the C-Raider 12? Or is it only for the ordinary R's and FR's? I see it has two different hole patterns.

    Edit: Contacted ATK, and no, the AL12 does not fit the C-Raider. They do not have any shims that fit that toe piece.
    I looked at this about a year ago. AL12 does not c-raider fit directly. Someone in this thread cut or ground off the lip and used them anyway. I chose not to do that because the toe locking mechanism is left unsupported which I did not like the look of as a potential failure point. Also screws are different between Raider and c-Raider so youíd still need to find something suitable.

    Apparently B&D make and sell shims for c-raider in three different thicknesses but i havenít tried them yet.

  4. #2079
    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    Posts
    1

    mounting new ATKs

    Hey all,
    Stoked to have found this long dedicated thread on ATKs for us N.American folk.
    I just got R13 evos and want to mount them, but since I have zero experience mounting AT bindings I'm going to take them to a shop. However, being from southern california there are likely zero shops nearby with requisite experience, and I know of exactly one in Mammoth that I'd think would be able to handle the job.
    My question is what should I know before taking it to the shop?
    - should I actually inquire if they're "ATK certified" techs?
    - any inserts that I should get beforehand, apart from the hardware included by ATK?
    - Freeride spacer. I don't have this yet, but want to and am not sure if I should have it before mounting...

    any other thread recommendations or general tips are much appreciated. Thanks!

  5. #2080
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Bay Area
    Posts
    746
    Quote Originally Posted by cat in january View Post
    Reminder as you get ready for the season, your atk heels like some lubrication
    What do you like for lube? ATK grease or something else?

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  6. #2081
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    base of the Bush
    Posts
    14,801
    Quote Originally Posted by m78b9a View Post
    Hey all,
    Stoked to have found this long dedicated thread on ATKs for us N.American folk.
    I just got R13 evos and want to mount them, but since I have zero experience mounting AT bindings I'm going to take them to a shop. However, being from southern california there are likely zero shops nearby with requisite experience, and I know of exactly one in Mammoth that I'd think would be able to handle the job.
    My question is what should I know before taking it to the shop?
    - should I actually inquire if they're "ATK certified" techs?
    - any inserts that I should get beforehand, apart from the hardware included by ATK?
    - Freeride spacer. I don't have this yet, but want to and am not sure if I should have it before mounting...

    any other thread recommendations or general tips are much appreciated. Thanks!
    You should get the proper lube first
    www.apriliaforum.com

    "If the road You followed brought you to this,of what use was the road"?

    "I have no idea what I am talking about but would be happy to share my biased opinions as fact on the matter. "
    Ottime

  7. #2082
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Maine Coast
    Posts
    4,617
    Quote Originally Posted by fleaches View Post
    What do you like for lube? ATK grease or something else?

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    When I bought mine there wasn’t any atk lube available in the US. From research it seems Synthetic polyolefin was a good alternative (see photo). I think some use white lithium grease. Today I would likely buy the atk product.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #2083
    Join Date
    Oct 2021
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    318
    Not sure if you know this, but the Black Diamond jig is the same thing as the ATK jig. I would first try calling up the REIs or the other big ski shops around SoCal and see if they carry the BD jig for touring binders. If they do, then you should be money. I had the same problem here in NYC until I realized the REI here had the BD jig which worked well enough.

    Also - to your other questions, if you want a flatter ramp angle, consider the toe shim for the Evo series which can be purchased separately. Freeride spacer - I'm assuming you're talking about the integrated version for the Evo series, in which case, yes, you need it before mounting as the spacer/heel unit are mounted in one go.



    Quote Originally Posted by m78b9a View Post
    Hey all,
    Stoked to have found this long dedicated thread on ATKs for us N.American folk.
    I just got R13 evos and want to mount them, but since I have zero experience mounting AT bindings I'm going to take them to a shop. However, being from southern california there are likely zero shops nearby with requisite experience, and I know of exactly one in Mammoth that I'd think would be able to handle the job.
    My question is what should I know before taking it to the shop?
    - should I actually inquire if they're "ATK certified" techs?
    - any inserts that I should get beforehand, apart from the hardware included by ATK?
    - Freeride spacer. I don't have this yet, but want to and am not sure if I should have it before mounting...

    any other thread recommendations or general tips are much appreciated. Thanks!

  9. #2084
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Eastside
    Posts
    383
    Quote Originally Posted by m78b9a View Post
    Hey all,
    Stoked to have found this long dedicated thread on ATKs for us N.American folk.
    I just got R13 evos and want to mount them, but since I have zero experience mounting AT bindings I'm going to take them to a shop. However, being from southern california there are likely zero shops nearby with requisite experience, and I know of exactly one in Mammoth that I'd think would be able to handle the job.
    My question is what should I know before taking it to the shop?
    - should I actually inquire if they're "ATK certified" techs?
    - any inserts that I should get beforehand, apart from the hardware included by ATK?
    - Freeride spacer. I don't have this yet, but want to and am not sure if I should have it before mounting...

    any other thread recommendations or general tips are much appreciated. Thanks!
    Mammoth mountaineering sells and mounts a whole lot of atks. Both techs have many years of experience mounting touring bindings. You don't need to know anything except where you want to mount them

  10. #2085
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    4,639
    Quote Originally Posted by Tjaardbreeuwer View Post
    @Gorek:
    One clarification:
    the hard-medium-soft toe clamping of the ‘old’ models is in WALK mode.
    The new Evo toes have adjustable clamping force in the toes in SKI mode.
    OK ... I haven't followed the Raider 13 Evo's "DIN" toe. A buddy is getting all wrapped around the axle - choosing between a better deal on an older Evo without it vs. a current model with this new "feature".

    Best I can tell, this has nothing to do with release reliability in a strict sense, but rather with retention ability - much like Dynafit's power towers, stiff jaw springs on Solly Mtns, etc.

    I'm thinkin' that since stronger faster, cliff hucking skiers might want max clamping strength from the jaws, this level of stiffness might affect lateral release function at lower settings. So, to allow for the stiffest possible jaw clamping pressure for these bad asses, they made the clamping force adjustable.

    Amirite?

    Of course, I asked my buddy when the last time he shocked out of his toe piece and he told me it was longer than a decade ago - maybe even two decades.

    So I asked him: "what's yer problem then?"

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 12-04-2023 at 03:48 AM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  11. #2086
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    243
    yeah, @galibier_numero_un , I think you’re right.

    Disclaimer: I have not seen any testing so this is just my understanding of ATK’s explanation:

    like you said, when I think about what happens in a lateral release: the heel of a tech binding has a certain rotational release torque. Either adjustable, or swap-able by U spring.
    But, the toes of a tech binding also ‘fight’ the lateral rotation of the boot at the heel (imagine if you have the heel in walk mode, you still can’t just push the boot heel out to the side).

    With traditional tech toes, this clamping force is fixed. So someone with a very low release value set in the heel, might not actually achieve that , because the toe jaws are ‘fighting’ that movement.

    Conversely, someone with a very high release value might find that the toe pins are pried open by the boot rotation at the heel, even though the heel has not released yet, and can still return to center.
    The latter is what the Dynafit Rotation is designed to avoid, of course.

    So, personally, I see the biggest benefit of the new toe piece for skiers using low release values, so that their binding is more likely to release at their desired torque.

    I think there is possibly also some benefit for people running very high release values, especially with short boots, because it might help prevent unwanted releases, but this seems far less clear cut to me.

  12. #2087
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    4,639
    Quote Originally Posted by Tjaardbreeuwer View Post
    yeah, @galibier_numero_un , I think you’re right.

    Disclaimer: I have not seen any testing so this is just my understanding of ATK’s explanation:

    like you said, when I think about what happens in a lateral release: the heel of a tech binding has a certain rotational release torque. Either adjustable, or swap-able by U spring.
    But, the toes of a tech binding also ‘fight’ the lateral rotation of the boot at the heel (imagine if you have the heel in walk mode, you still can’t just push the boot heel out to the side).

    With traditional tech toes, this clamping force is fixed. So someone with a very low release value set in the heel, might not actually achieve that , because the toe jaws are ‘fighting’ that movement.

    Conversely, someone with a very high release value might find that the toe pins are pried open by the boot rotation at the heel, even though the heel has not released yet, and can still return to center.
    The latter is what the Dynafit Rotation is designed to avoid, of course.

    So, personally, I see the biggest benefit of the new toe piece for skiers using low release values, so that their binding is more likely to release at their desired torque.

    I think there is possibly also some benefit for people running very high release values, especially with short boots, because it might help prevent unwanted releases, but this seems far less clear cut to me.
    Thanks for that! I was tempted to get even more wordy in phrasing my initial question, but I think your description nails it - at least that was what I was hoping to verify. I love ATK as a company, but their terminology and model proliferation is beyond nuts.

    Their uphill clamping force feature (UHV - uphill hardness variator) at least makes sense in its description, even if the English translation is klunky. To call that downhill toe mode adjustment "DIN" is absurd.

    Sidebar - I wonder if there truly is a new DIN spec for tech binder toe clamping force? Perhaps I missed something.

    In any case, I told my buddy that the standard toes have something like a fixed 9-10 clamping force, if you were to use the new "DIN" toe as a comparison. This would straddle the range to provide reliable RVs across the range of horizontal release settings at the heel - for reasons you stated (reliable release for lower RVs, and "pretty good" retention for higher RV settings). This of course, tells you nothing about how retentive they are in comparison with a Solly MTN, a Trab, Plum, etc.

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 12-05-2023 at 03:01 PM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  13. #2088
    Join Date
    Sep 2022
    Posts
    216
    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post

    In any case, I described my take on their "DIN" vs. standard toe to my buddy as very likely, the standard toes have perhaps a fixed 9-10 clamping force (to straddle the range for reasons you stated). This of course, tells you nothing about how retentive they are in comparison with a Solly MTN, a Trab, Plum, etc.

    ... Thom
    If only we still had lou measuring clamping forces on his workbench



    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  14. #2089
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    304
    Quote Originally Posted by ezgzy View Post
    If only we still had lou measuring clamping forces on his workbench



    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I really miss Lou.

  15. #2090
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    4,639
    Quote Originally Posted by s1ammy View Post
    I really miss Lou.
    We have very few geek resources at the moment. I can count on one hand, the number of times I've visited Wildsnow since his departure. Good on him for having monetized his hard work. Too bad, there wasn't a "better" buyer.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  16. #2091
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Driggs
    Posts
    549
    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    We have very few geek resources at the moment. I can count on one hand, the number of times I've visited Wildsnow since his departure. Good on him for having monetized his hard work. Too bad, there wasn't a "better" buyer.

    ... Thom
    If you call Skimoco, they've done toe clamping force tests on a bunch of tech bindings. They don't put the results online, but if you call them up and aren't a dick, they can throw you some numbers.

  17. #2092
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    4,639
    Quote Originally Posted by cydwhit View Post
    If you call Skimoco, they've done toe clamping force tests on a bunch of tech bindings. They don't put the results online, but if you call them up and aren't a dick, they can throw you some numbers.
    Thanks. Indeed, Skimoco is the best resource we have. I try to throw some coin at them when I can.

    I don't have any concerns about this whole thing. The last time I shocked out of tech toes was on some Verticals, and I can't swear that this wasn't due to user error (not clearing ice from my boot fittings).

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  18. #2093
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    243
    Regarding the new Crest AP (auto unlocking brakes):

    The pin delta has increase significantly: from ~11 mm to ~16 mm. Even the (otherwise excellent) Skialper did not mention this in their review.

    Disclaimer, I have not measured this, this is taking Skialpers numbers for the AP and competing to Skimo’s numbers for the ‘classic’.

  19. #2094
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    842
    Shameless plug for my shims, they fit the classic toe nicely and I made too many. Also have shims which fit the raider toes.

    3.2mm and 4.7mm. shoot me a pm if interested.


    https://photos.app.goo.gl/tgZfrKs496Ua4NMbA

  20. #2095
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Front Range, CO
    Posts
    673
    Anyone have a link or lead on paper mounting templates for the Raider Evo mount pattern (evo 11 / 15, but they're all the same)?

  21. #2096
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    UT
    Posts
    471
    Quote Originally Posted by garuda View Post
    Anyone have a link or lead on paper mounting templates for the Raider Evo mount pattern (evo 11 / 15, but they're all the same)?
    https://www.haganskimountaineering.c...-and-templates

    Evo are the same as the standard R12's.
    45x44 toe 45x60 heel

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVq3JshG5Wo
    Last edited by EricB; 12-06-2023 at 04:20 PM.

  22. #2097
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Gaperville, CO
    Posts
    5,831
    Quote Originally Posted by Westcoaster View Post
    Shameless plug for my shims, they fit the classic toe nicely and I made too many. Also have shims which fit the raider toes.

    3.2mm and 4.7mm. shoot me a pm if interested.


    https://photos.app.goo.gl/tgZfrKs496Ua4NMbA
    Douche your inbox so you can sell me a pair.

  23. #2098
    Join Date
    Sep 2022
    Posts
    216
    I have an extra hagan r01 plate that i didnít end up needing, never used or mounted. Anyone here want it?


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  24. #2099
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    842
    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    Douche your inbox so you can sell me a pair.
    Douched

  25. #2100
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    227
    Quote Originally Posted by Tjaardbreeuwer View Post
    Regarding the new Crest AP (auto unlocking brakes):

    The pin delta has increase significantly: from ~11 mm to ~16 mm. Even the (otherwise excellent) Skialper did not mention this in their review.

    Disclaimer, I have not measured this, this is taking Skialpers numbers for the AP and competing to Skimo’s numbers for the ‘classic’.
    I just got a pair of Crest AP bindings, and the pin delta has indeed increased -- I measured it to be about a 3.5mm increase over regular Crests, so a pin delta of 14.5mm.

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