Official ATK Binding Thread

[Boissal]

The Kuluar is a fine binding but hasn't made a huge splash because it lacks the two features that make ATK special these days: the integrated freeride spacer and the cam system heelpiece. Another consideration is the ~12mm of ramp but you can shim the toes pretty easily to lower that if you want.

Thanks. Buddy is on ancient bindings with a higher pin delta (+16 I think) and he wouldn't know what a freeride spacer is if I showed him one. Same for the fancy cam system. When you skis on 15 yeah old tech with your toes locked and send it harder than anyone I can think of while weighting about 120 lbs, your standard are a bit loose I guess.

[Beder]

All of the Raiders/Freeraiders have the same toe this year, which has ~11mm ramp in stock configuration. The FR16, however, includes the new AL12 shim stock, which raises the toe height 4mm and is optional. The other bindings do not include the shim stock but you can buy it aftermarket https://www.haganskimountaineering.c...2-pro-toe-shim

I linked the Hagan site since they are charging $40 but currently out of stock. Other sites are charging $70 for the shim which is nuts. The shim is compatible with all Raider and C-Raider toe pieces (and the C-Crest, available in Yurp).

shims are available at Hagan

[Pins and Skins]

Skimo, Backcountry (1 left) and Moosejaw all have them available for $40 a pair.

Also, for anyone considering the new Evo series, you will need a new freeride spacer for the Evo 11s and Evo 13s (the 15s come with). It is the new AL13 spacer, not the old AL09.

shims are available at Hagan

[Va Ki Bo]

ATK Rolling in U-springs feature - really makes any practical difference or just kind of a gimmick?

They said: ATK "Rolling in System U-spring promises easier use, better consistency, and improved longevity compared to traditional U-springs".
So "improved longevity" as a main concern, longevity for traditional U-springs (longevity of boot heel insert and U-spring itself) - is a real world issue?

I'm looking on lightish ~DIN 8-10 heels (like Trofeo) for high mountain setup to franken it with Dynafit Speed Turn toes, but never actually used U-spring type heels.

[Lindahl]

You do have to replace them from time to time to have consistent vertical release. Rolling pins obviate (or mitigate?) this need.

There is some concern that steel pins can wear down the heel fitting on your boot, which, depending on construction will require you to replace either the fitting or perhaps even the boot. I haven't seen this myself, but my only U spring bindings use Ti springs, which won't wear down steel heel fittings.

[Benneke10]

I would imagine that the rolling pins have less friction upon step-in so it makes sense that they could last longer than normal steel springs. It makes sense in a skimo application because they are nearly as light as a Ti spring with the durability at least as good as a steel spring. Its a neat feature that I wish was available for the Trofeo and other bindings, but probably not cheap to manufacture.

I have never actually seen boot tech inserts or steel heel springs actually wear out, has anybody else? I have definitely seen Ti springs wear out on skimo race bindings and don't see the point in using them for any non-competitive application.

[Va Ki Bo]

Lindahl, thanks. Yes, I got the theory about extensive pressure and friction in the heel fittings every time you step-in in the U-spring, especially for higher RV springs, but also I can't remember any real user mention (here or elsewhere) about wearing down fittings, fittings replacement, etc. (For me personally this topic arised when G3 released Zed bindings and started mentioning "U-spring issue" in every Zed promo video/podcast).

[Va Ki Bo]

Benneke10, ditto!
So looks like for my expedition usage mode (couple of weeks per year & couple of step-ins per day) this will not be a problem for many years. Thanks!

[Benneke10]

Did people talk much about "unreliability" and other reported flaws of U-springs before G3 made that part of their marketing pitch?

[random_watcher]

I have never actually seen boot tech inserts or steel heel springs actually wear out, has anybody else? I have definitely seen Ti springs wear out on skimo race bindings and don't see the point in using them for any non-competitive application.

I've seen a cracked U-spring which was deemed to be down to wear rather than manufacturing, although the bindings had been used a lot. Probably many thousands of cycles of boot stepping in.

[rod9301]

The u springs in my mtn bindings show signs of wear but fairly small

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[Va Ki Bo]

The u springs in my mtn bindings show signs of wear but fairly small

And how many days they've already got? Dozens, hundreds, thousands?

[rod9301]

A hundred or so

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[Va Ki Bo]

A hundred or so

Sounds good enough for me, thanks for input.

[Jonathan S.]

Even though steel U spring vs boot heel binding interface might seem like a variation of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresi..._force_paradox
... both of them in my experience seem to be impervious to wear.

The most earned vertical feet I have on standard boot heel interfaces is a little over 1.1 million, plus some lift-served: both the Alien 1.0 that was starting to have problems, plus the 3.0 that is still in pretty fine condition. The heel inserts though still appeared to be pristine. Also ~600,000 to ~800,000 in four other pairs of boots, with varying degrees of problems after all that use, except the heel inserts were still perfect.
I also have almost 1.7 million vertical on a pair of Pierre Gignoux boots (which are still fine overall, although lots of little maintenance items over the years), but the heel interface isn't quite standard (yet still is compatible), although once again no signs of wear.

Steel U springs, I've never noticed any wear, even on bindings that have been in the quiver a long time.
Ti U springs, definitely a wear item (kind of like bikini liners for race boots).
The Hagan-rebranded ATK roll-in springs are brilliant though: the weight of Ti, the seemingly infinite durability of steel, and lower step-in force (especially noticeable since I retrofitted an older binding).

[Jonathan S.]

Even though steel U spring vs boot heel binding interface might seem like a variation of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresi..._force_paradox
... both of them in my experience seem to be impervious to wear.

I think this is more apt:
https://www.nps.gov/articles/battle-...-ironclads.htm

And here's boot heel binding interface vs Ti U spring:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...ntiago_de_Cuba

[Va Ki Bo]

Jonathan, nice! Out of curiosity, for such significant mileage accumulated is there any toe inserts interface degradation (both for boots and bindings) you can notice?

[Jonathan S.]

As I discovered yesterday while mounting up four pairs of ATK bindings:

The Kuluar is a fine binding but [...]. Another consideration is [...]

... that the Kuluar uses a different crampon clip than the otherwise nearly identical toe pieces on the RT, Crest, Trofeo, WC, Haute Route, and Pure models.

Furthermore, not only does this mean you can't swap a set of Kuluar crampon clips among those other models, but you can't easily swap Kuluar crampon clips among multiple pairs of Kuluar bindings, as you would need to almost completely uninstall & reinstall all four toe unit screws.
(With those other models, you can often get away without touching the binding mounting screws at all, although sometimes you might need to back off the mounting screws just a little bit, depending on the ski topskin and other random little factors.)
But since all current Kuluar models appear to come equipped with the crampon clips (even though they're easily removable before the binding is mounted), the lack of easy installation/removal once mounted is probably moot.

[Jonathan S.]

[...] Out of curiosity, for such significant mileage accumulated is there any toe inserts interface degradation (both for boots and bindings) you can notice?

No apparent toe insert degradation or damage (whether visual or functional) despite that much normal use, with Normal Use including lots of off-snow travel on scree (PNW) and granite (NH) that most ski tourers would classify instead as Negligent Abuse.

I did though notice the beginnings of some damage when I was using an old boot years ago to conduct torque test results with the binding toe lever placed into increasingly higher touring positions.
(I discontinued such tests both because of that damage and because the effective release value was clearly getting into lack-of-release range!)

Also, somewhat related, a few years, something like three racers out here placed a group buy of Pierre Gignoux boots. When mounting them, I noticed that the toe pincers were somewhat rattly.
Comparing them to my own PG boots, I realized that this batch had toe sockets that were essentially too deep (and hence the binding toe pincers weren't able to be sufficiently seated into the interface).
PG confirmed this, and offered to fix them for free ... but we'd have to pay shipping to Europe, ugh.
I ended up fixing this on my own with a Dremel tool, but those boot toe inserts were so hard that I ended up breaking my Dremel tool in the process!

[galibier_numero_un]

Regarding the rolling heel pins, if I recall Davide's comments correctly (Gear:30 podcast), it's the cam design on the rear pins which maintains parallelism, and therefore release consistency as the ski flexes.

Whether this is a benefit in practice (vs. on paper), I can't say.

... Thom

[Jongle]

Freeride spacer question - I'm about to install a pair of R12s with spacers, which I'll be skiing with Hawx Ultras and TLT8s (both size 24.5). The Hawx boots seem fine, but the heel on the TLT8s is so narrow that the boot sole only makes contact with about half of the surface area of the spacer on either side (see pic). Will I die, or worse, fail to achieve the full performance benefits of the spacer?

[Benneke10]

Hard for me to say but you might get better performance using the AL05 Universal Freeride Spacer

[Westcoaster]

Freeride spacer question - I'm about to install a pair of R12s with spacers, which I'll be skiing with Hawx Ultras and TLT8s (both size 24.5). The Hawx boots seem fine, but the heel on the TLT8s is so narrow that the boot sole only makes contact with about half of the surface area of the spacer on either side (see pic). Will I die, or worse, fail to achieve the full performance benefits of the spacer?

It shouldnt matter.

[Jongle]

I'll do a test mount on a 2x4 to see how it feels to click into the bindings while wearing my boots. In the meantime, apart from the need to drill extra holes in your skis, are there any downsides to AL05 Universal Freeride Spacer vs. the AL09 spacer?

[Benneke10]

The AL05 universal spacer seems like a much more practical design. The AL09 relies on small plastic parts and I don't really trust it to last long term. A friend of mine broke his. I feel like a narrower-heeled boot would probably put more stress on them.