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  1. #1776
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benneke10 View Post
    Its hard to imagine PC investing money into building trails for uphill mtb riders who don't spend any money
    But, that's been >90% of PC trail development for the last 10+ years?

  2. #1777
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    Still getting settled into our new home and replacing stuff that was lost in the move but I had some time to go poking around my neighborhood last weekend and found a nice trail at the end of Benchmark Drive. I've probably only ridden a bike 3-4 times in 20ish years since I got my drivers license but it's like I never stopped. I definitely need to work on my legs and lungs for climbing but getting out in the dirt was fun. I'm definitely missing the ocean, the views out here are amazing. The trail on Benchmark Dr ends right down the street from my house, so it's super convenient. I'm going to keep lapping this thing for a few weeks until I'm a bit faster and more confident before venturing out and finding new terrain, but I think this mountain biking thing is going to work out. It's not surfing but it's pretty damn cool.

    The free bike seems to be working out great, although I don't know wtf is up with the tire valves. Never seen anything like them in my life - what kind of adapter do I need to be able to use a normal pump??

  3. #1778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    But, that's been >90% of PC trail development for the last 10+ years?
    I'm pretty new to the area, have PCMR been developing trails for human powered riders recently? I don't know the history. I have seen other organizations developing lots of trails in the PC area but not in the resort.

  4. #1779
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    New trail development at PCMR (which, AFAIK, has mostly be spearheaded by MTF not POWDR/Vail) has overwhelmingly focused on uphill-only trails (Armstrong, lower Jennis, Mother Urban), bi-directional trails that are strongly uphill-biased (Pinecone, Jennis above CMG, Tommy's, 3 Candles), or traverses (MM, 9k). Prior to Cyn City opening the only DH-only trails at PCMR were Mojave and Silver Queen, which have a combined distance of 1.9 miles, and Mojave was originally bi-directional.

    eta: I suppose I should count Mooshouse in the DH-only list, but that's a user-created trail that was adopted into the system.

  5. #1780
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    Thanks for the explanation, I didn't realize any of those trails other than 9k were new

  6. #1781
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    New-ish, generally since 2010 or so. MM was more like 2002, but IIRC it was the first purpose-built bike trail in PC. Otherwise, almost all PCMR trails that pre-date MM are leftovers from the mining days.

  7. #1782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Prior to Cyn City opening the only DH-only trails at PCMR were Mojave and Silver Queen, which have a combined distance of 1.9 miles, and Mojave was originally bi-directional.

    eta: I suppose I should count Mooshouse in the DH-only list, but that's a user-created trail that was adopted into the system.
    I think you can add Black Forest to that DH list. Or was that similar to MH in that is was user-created? Of course I don’t want to make it seem like there’s an abundance of downhill options. I think there’s certainly a need for something that falls between Cyn City and stuff like Black Forest on the difficulty scale.

  8. #1783
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    BF/Moosehouse/Empire/evil empire/are all old as time up there and most likely were created by users and adopted into the "official" trail map/list due to their legacy/longevity in the area. there are tons of offshoots and skidders that keep popping up. PCMR/MTF did add Loose Moose as a bi-directional trail from nearly the top of Jenni's to the CMG intersection. It boggles my mind that a resort selling bike haul tickets hasn't put something in from the top of their lift to the base that is solely DH oriented. It's probably the liability of having the access that exists in PC and the fact that Vail isn't investing $ in bike infrastructure from what i've heard. I think they are working on that new short lower berm section and planning on extending that up higher on the mountain.
    "If we can't bring the mountain to the party, let's bring the PARTY to the MOUNTAIN!"

  9. #1784
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    Not that long ago, I always climbed Black Forest because it was quiet and peaceful and had good dirt. mostly trail runners and no DH/ traffic damage.
    So the world is filled with tubular entities. Food goes in one end and shit comes out the other. Sperm goes in and babies come out.

  10. #1785
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    Quote Originally Posted by g_man80 View Post
    I think you can add Black Forest to that DH list. Or was that similar to MH in that is was user-created? Of course I don’t want to make it seem like there’s an abundance of downhill options. I think there’s certainly a need for something that falls between Cyn City and stuff like Black Forest on the difficulty scale.
    Yeah, BF is user-created and old AF. Too bad 9k ruined it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phall View Post
    BF/Moosehouse/Empire/evil empire/are all old as time up there and most likely were created by users and adopted into the "official" trail map/list due to their legacy/longevity in the area. there are tons of offshoots and skidders that keep popping up. PCMR/MTF did add Loose Moose as a bi-directional trail from nearly the top of Jenni's to the CMG intersection. It boggles my mind that a resort selling bike haul tickets hasn't put something in from the top of their lift to the base that is solely DH oriented. It's probably the liability of having the access that exists in PC and the fact that Vail isn't investing $ in bike infrastructure from what i've heard. I think they are working on that new short lower berm section and planning on extending that up higher on the mountain.
    Is Empire on MTF's printed map? AFAIK it's still unsanctioned/unofficial. There's certainly no signs and below MM it's even stayed off of Trailforks, somehow. Regardless, I'm talking about modern, sanctioned trail development in PC.

    Vail seems to give zero fucks about bikes. Just look at what they did at the Canyons. A friend in Crested Butte told me they nearly scuttled the CB bike park and only reversed that decision under threat of open revolt.

  11. #1786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phall View Post
    It boggles my mind that a resort selling bike haul tickets hasn't put something in from the top of their lift to the base that is solely DH oriented.
    Truth. What a catastrophic waste...

    I had a weird interaction the other day at the yurt with a couple bros who were making fun of me for pedaling uphill (how stupid of me, using a bike to go up). I asked them what they had been riding with their awesome lift pass and they were basically on a Silver Queen rotation. They had done 1 Mojave but didn't like it. They were talking about trying T2S for a change, had to tell them it was uphill only. Curious how they got off MM since they clearly weren't RedBull-ready.

    The thought of paying $$ to spend a day on Silver Queen then finish on Jenny's or CMG didn't really make me laugh but they felt like they were doing something better than me so I left their superiority slide and rode awesome skidders back to the base.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meconium View Post
    Not that long ago, I always climbed Black Forest because it was quiet and peaceful and had good dirt. mostly trail runners and no DH/ traffic damage.
    Damn, can't imagine climbing it, It think it would be more than 50% HAB for me...
    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

  12. #1787
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    Going plaid speed on Spiro and CMG isn’t cool anymore?


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  13. #1788
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    Quote Originally Posted by joetron View Post
    Going plaid speed on Spiro and CMG isn’t cool anymore?


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Rode Spiro in a downpour on Friday and it was glorious. We had a great time at trail party - the wife and I thank PC very much.

    Now MM or John’s 99 are generally the lowest I venture around PC these days. Doing lots of parking at Bloods Lake TH and ending rides with climbs.

  14. #1789
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post
    Dan, 203 in the back burn pads even better

    I would love to see Pinecone go directional on a rotating schedule. Uphill only on odd days, downhill only on even, Millcreek style. I know it would be a nightmare of poaching and create endless conflict but, worth it. Pinecone is the perfect way to end a big ride in Park City if you're anywhere above mid mountain. Doesn't take too much additional work to get there, especially with 9k in place. If I'm in the area I sure as shit am not dropping down Shadow Lake or any of the other grimy options to get back down.
    Yes, Pinecone is mostly straight line without much change in pitch but riding down feels like being in a video game. Steep enough to really get moving with a whole bunch of sideways hits and perfect gaps with really good line of sight for the most part. I personally find climbing it to be boring as fuck, especially when linked with Armstrong, and barely slower than Jennys > T2S > 3C > Apex > Shadow. That's by far the preferred way to Crest in my book, quiet, scenic, and much more interesting.
    Completely agree with every word. Can’t ride at all this summer, rotator cuff surgery in May. But last summer i developed a new technique for avoiding people, and it allowed me to get more done around the house in the morning. I ride in the heat of the day. Show up to the base of pcmr at 1. Everyone is leaving, trails empty. Sure it’s hot, but it’s Utah in the summer, it’s always hot.

  15. #1790
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post
    Truth. What a catastrophic waste...
    Damn, can't imagine climbing it, It think it would be more than 50% HAB for me...
    Sorry Dead Tree, not BF. Different names, same mental image of the words.
    So the world is filled with tubular entities. Food goes in one end and shit comes out the other. Sperm goes in and babies come out.

  16. #1791
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    Quote Originally Posted by joetron View Post
    Going plaid speed on Spiro and CMG isn’t cool anymore?
    Never said it wasn't. Convo started with whether/how Pinecone could/should become DH-only. Consensus was that an alternating-scheme would be an unmitigated disaster, so you'd have to build a new trail and have dedicated up/down routes. Further consensus was that PC seems incapable of building good descents anymore, so the new trail should be up-only. It was then asked why PC would invest money "building trails for uphill mtb riders who don't spend any money", so I pointed out that that's been >90% of sanctioned PC trail building in the 21st century. That led to the observation that it's odd that a resort that sells bike haul tickets hasn't built *one* official DH-only route down to the lift base.

    Also, FWIW, Spiro and CMG may see a lot less climbers than they used to, but they're still bi-directional (well, the good part of CMG anyway) and you do have to be prepared to encounter uphill traffic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post
    Curious how they got off MM since they clearly weren't RedBull-ready.
    Should have shown them RB anyway, there's only so much trouble they could get into before the first Jenni's crossing

  17. #1792
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    I don't mind the uphill only trails as it is nice to climb without having to worry too much about out of control riders headed downhill. Would be nice if they put in more DH only trails though... Or make CMG and Spiro DH only and add another DH only trail on the Jennis/RedBull side of the ridge.... As a starter they could actually probably use the Red Bull route and just add optional re-routes in the spicier sections of that trail.
    The K-12 dude. You make a gnarly run like that and girls will get sterile just looking at you - Charles De Mar

  18. #1793
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    We encountered 3 people coming up Spiro as we were going down it to end the day. All hikers.

    Also rode Cyn City, I can see some of the complaints of some of it being pedally. Still a fun trail even if not what I typically look for. Maybe a prime candidate for a no brakes challenge?


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  19. #1794
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    As a side note, I chatted up Mountain Trails on a volunteer day about why there weren't building more Evil Empire/RedBull style trails with steeper descents and optional features and their answer was a bit disheartening. They said that while they would love to build more challenging trails because they also want to ride those types of trails, as an org they are focused on building sustainable trails for "everybody to enjoy". Makes sense given who their donor base is but it was a bit disappointing to hear that it's not even in their plan to build anything other than XC or flow style trails. Still... I'd rather have more trails than less trails so can't be that disappointed about it.
    The K-12 dude. You make a gnarly run like that and girls will get sterile just looking at you - Charles De Mar

  20. #1795
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheK12 View Post
    Still... I'd rather have more trails than less trails so can't be that disappointed about it.
    Ultimately this. I don't ride in PC to send the absolute gnar, I go up there to bang out some miles at an average speed higher than 2.5 mph (which is my Cottonwoods pace). I can roll up to PC without a plan and ride 30+ fun miles without putting myself too deep in the pain cave. Fun ups, fun downs, nothing spectacular but nothing I wouldn't ride 10 times a year either. Sure, I'd love it if they built 4 or 5 new rowdy DH-only trail to make up for ruining Black Forest. But I'll happily take an unremarkable uphill-only machine-build mile of new trail like Mother Urban. Could the time and effort spent on 9k have been better used elsewhere>? Absolutely, but I've ridden 9k a bunch by now and I'm glad it's there.
    Ultimately the more options there are, especially directional, the more fun I can have cause, you know, I'm riding a bike!
    The current PC development mentality isn't what I'd pick if I ran the world. But as long as they do work that dilutes crowds and creates options I won't moan about it.
    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

  21. #1796
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    If they built true steep, stuff would be more blown out than the rouge builds. Our moon dust summers doesn’t seem to match with true gnar builds. I think they are going a pretty good job. I lapped off the top and through the new trail twice last night. Climbing Corvair and up to empire chair makes me plenty tired. I only saw half a dozen people outside of my short stretch on 9 k. If they build more downhill off the lift, they will have to maintain it, or it will just turn to brake bumped, blown out dust bowls.

  22. #1797
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheK12 View Post
    I don't mind the uphill only trails as it is nice to climb without having to worry too much about out of control riders headed downhill. Would be nice if they put in more DH only trails though... Or make CMG and Spiro DH only and add another DH only trail on the Jennis/RedBull side of the ridge.... As a starter they could actually probably use the Red Bull route and just add optional re-routes in the spicier sections of that trail.
    PC absolutely needs up-only trails. Their entire network should be directional, but somehow they only got half the memo. Spiro and CMG should have gone DH-only the day Jenni's was finished, but I'm sure there are lots of crusty old timers that would have loudly protested.

    I probably sound more invested in this than I actually am. The price of gas is mostly keeping me on the west side of Parleys these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheK12 View Post
    As a side note, I chatted up Mountain Trails on a volunteer day about why there weren't building more Evil Empire/RedBull style trails with steeper descents and optional features and their answer was a bit disheartening. They said that while they would love to build more challenging trails because they also want to ride those types of trails, as an org they are focused on building sustainable trails for "everybody to enjoy". Makes sense given who their donor base is but it was a bit disappointing to hear that it's not even in their plan to build anything other than XC or flow style trails. Still... I'd rather have more trails than less trails so can't be that disappointed about it.
    On the flipside, PC seems to have stopped caring about unsanctioned trail building completely. Until that changes this is really only a problem for the Silver Queen lapper types.


    Regarding actual riding of bikes, did anyone get up high last night? Bet the dirt awesome!

  23. #1798
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheK12 View Post
    ... building sustainable trails for "everybody to enjoy".
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  24. #1799
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post
    Ultimately this. I don't ride in PC to send the absolute gnar, I go up there to bang out some miles at an average speed higher than 2.5 mph (which is my Cottonwoods pace). I can roll up to PC without a plan and ride 30+ fun miles without putting myself too deep in the pain cave. Fun ups, fun downs, nothing spectacular but nothing I wouldn't ride 10 times a year either. Sure, I'd love it if they built 4 or 5 new rowdy DH-only trail to make up for ruining Black Forest. But I'll happily take an unremarkable uphill-only machine-build mile of new trail like Mother Urban. Could the time and effort spent on 9k have been better used elsewhere>? Absolutely, but I've ridden 9k a bunch by now and I'm glad it's there.
    Ultimately the more options there are, especially directional, the more fun I can have cause, you know, I'm riding a bike!
    The current PC development mentality isn't what I'd pick if I ran the world. But as long as they do work that dilutes crowds and creates options I won't moan about it.
    Yep... And at the end of the day, it is pretty amazing I can ride several zones throughout the week and not really repeat a trail twice. It all kind of rides the same but the views change and it's all fun cause like you said, riding bikes and all.
    The K-12 dude. You make a gnarly run like that and girls will get sterile just looking at you - Charles De Mar

  25. #1800
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    ^^^ agreed, ultimately we have it pretty damn good out here. Clearly it's not Whistler or Bellingham, we don't have the best dirt + climate for riding and the terrain isn't being used to its full potential. That being said, I left work at 5:30 yesterday and was on Crest at 7pm feeling a bit chilly and watching a moose parade while riding empty trails which aren't the best ever but are still fun as shit. Saw exactly 1 other rider in 2.5 hours, the few hikers I came across were psyched, the beer tasted great at the end of the ride, and I didn't even get caught in the summer BCC red snake. I'm calling that one (and all the others) a big old win! Views were completely acceptable:

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    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

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