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  1. #26
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    Kelsey is famous for getting people in trouble. Still, at the time, his books were all there was available. Surely by now there is something better or he's improved the accuracy of his stuff?
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Kelsey is famous for getting people in trouble. Still, at the time, his books were all there was available. Surely by now there is something better or he's improved the accuracy of his stuff?
    Step by step GPS directions for most slot canyons are now all over the internet, including the really remote and obscure ones in the Roost.
    Kind of a bummer really, when I first got into canyoneering some 15 years ago getting sandbagged by a Kelsey description was a rite of passage! You'd get lost on the drive, take 4x as long as described to get through the approach, drop in the wrong fork, never find any of the promised anchors or features to anchor from, find 12' of water in canyons that were described as always dry, rappel 100' dry falls listed as being 30' downclimbs, miss the exit (usually twice), then hike double the mileage you expected to get back to the car. Uphill both ways in deep sand. Good times.
    I'm a sucker for topo maps and GPS directions and can't ignore them if they're out there so the experience is way different now...

  3. #28
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    General desert driving advice...

    Main roads will be packed firm and easily traveled in most passenger cars.

    The interesting camping spots and hiking jump-offs will involve smaller roads and two-tracks. You'd be foolish to stick to the main drags and not explore that grand country.

    Rocks and mud puddles are obvious physical obstacles and can be judged from a distance.

    SAND is the more formidable foe as it can be deceiving. Be aware of sandy areas, even if it's a pullout or short track to the rim, etc. cause it could surprise you.

    Short stretches of sand can be sprinted through with a good run-in and momentum awareness. Longer stretches will fuck ya without 4x4, wide tires (and/or aired down), heavy throttle.

    A couple favorite spots down in the Escalante area have Jong-filter sand traps.
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  4. #29
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    Skinny tires better in sand. When aired down the contact patch gets significantly longer. I realize bunny will be in a Hyundai or something, but for the cruiser I don't like to go wider than 10.5. most of the mains dirt roads in Boulder mountain will be fine. Smaller ones to get to cool spots require legit 4x4 high clearance. If the roads are wet, stick to pavement in a cute Ute. Notom road is fine, Burr trail is easy, the main road heading south through the park from fruits is also easy dirt road, where the easy road ends, there is a stream crossing. Don't go any further in a cute Ute.

    sent from Utah.
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  5. #30
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    I hear they're making a hidden winch bumper for the forester now....beware of the lesbian takeover of your favorite spots. Could be a good thing I guess.

  6. #31
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    I should've said, "tires at the right pressure".

    Quote Originally Posted by basinbeater View Post
    Skinny tires better in sand. When aired down the contact patch gets significantly longer. I realize bunny will be in a Hyundai or something, but for the cruiser I don't like to go wider than 10.5.
    Ok, I buy that, sorta. Longer contact patch maybe tracks better and has less rolling resistance. Buggies, etc have skinnies up front for steering and wide paddles in the rear.

    https://outbackjoe.com/macho-diverti...-help-in-sand/

    Pressure governs, with overall contact patch area increasing when aired down despite tire dimensions. For a heavy truck, wider could buy some flotation.

    Shrug.

    When did it become American-bro-cool to run wide rubber, despite the drawbacks in many conditions?
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  7. #32
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    Nortem rd on east side of Capitol Reef Park is passable dirt road with a Cool switcback with views and will take you To burr trail rd which is paved and not to me Missed.
    Hole in wall rd (40 mile rd) is often washboarded due to high traffic out to spooky/beekaboo slot canyons, (not to be missed) it gets rougher as you get to the end, but any suv should be fine.

    Cruising desert dirt roads with the window down, the dead playing on the stereo, a cold adult beverage and smoke rolling out the window is the only way to experience the desert. Hayduke lives!
    Like others Recommended fill up before embarking on those rds

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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by My Pet Powder Goat View Post
    Cruising desert dirt roads with the window down, the dead playing on the stereo, a cold adult beverage and smoke rolling out the window is the only way to experience the desert. Hayduke lives!
    Like others Recommended fill up before embarking on those rds
    This x1000, both the Hayduke and the think-ahead-about-gas part.
    Cruising around the Thule hardpan sipping a beer when the sun burns up on Notch Peak is a thing of absolute beauty but nothing will ruin that glorious buzz as much as watching the gauge creep toward E while 100 miles out in the middle of nowhere, UT.

  9. #34
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    Couldn't agree more with MPPG and Boissal. This thread is worthless without pics. The Capitol Reef, Boulder Mountain, Thousand Lake mountain, Henry Mountain areas are LOADED with badass 4x4 adventuring. High clearance 4x4 and awareness of the potential for things to get wet and slippery are crucial.

    Capitol Reef NP... Couple of pics from last May, when we did a little loop starting in Torrey. Down pleasant creek road up and over the SW border of the park, through tantalus flats, and up to the boulder mountain highway. Badass drive. Not for cute utes. No, this post will not result in a crowded drive. I have done this drive multiple times and never run into another vehicle once the graded dirt road ends in the park.

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  10. #35
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    Norseman... Here is info on tire width and off roading. For rock crawling, and that sort of thing, a wide tire can have benefits, as well as on pavement. But generally, in mud/sand, and tall skinny tire is more effective when appropriately aired down. Tall and skinny will cut through the mud better to get to harder better traction surfaces, and in sand, when aired down, the longer contact patch and less forward resistance make skinny more effective. I researched this in the past, and a quick google search comes up with this....

    Did you read the section on off road contact pressure and its effects on adhesion? More and more rock crawlers are actually using narrower tires. I found this write up as well. To the point I must say

    "Less rotating mass- Easier to start and stop
    Less reciprocating mass- Easier to dampen
    Less wind resistance- Better economy and range
    Less rolling resistance- Better economy and range
    Easier to fit a taller/narrower tire with less lift
    Lighter spare
    Lighter tire
    Lighter wheel
    Less unsprung weight
    Less weight and leverage on steering components, bearings, etc.

    In terrain:
    1. Less frontal resistance in mud and sand. Where is most of the increased contact patch (for flotation) gained? In the length, not the width. Tall and narrow allows for more length and greater deformation with less resistance.

    It is as simple as understanding the coefficient of friction (COF), which is (Ff = Cf x Fv).

    Ff= Friction Force
    Cf= Coefficient of Friction
    Fv= Force Vertical

    As you make a tire wider, you reduce the Fv over a larger area, but gain Cf. As you make a tire narrower, you increase the Fv, but reduce the area of contact, which lowers the Cf. It is proportional, though there are times when the material interaction (lets say a drag tire on concrete) favors Cf, but those conditions rarely exist on the trail, on a perfectly flat surface. So, if a wide and narrow tires benefits with relationship to Cf and Fv are proportional, than the decision must be made on other factors, like weight, resistance, etc., as listed above.

    Now of course, there are limits at both ends of the spectrum. Too narrow of a tire, and the torque applied to the surface, even with extremely high Fv (which a super narrow tire would have), would exceed the rubbers ability to resist tearing. Literally, burning rubber.

    It is all a balance, with tires for most of the trucks we drive being ideal in the 9-11" wide range.

    Big, fat tires are only for show trucks and tundra buggies. An expedition vehicle has an emphasis on simplicity, economy, durability and safety, none of which a 35x14.5 will give you. . ."

    I am quoting a post from some Portal archives I dug up. The #1 section there under terrain hit it on the nail.

    I can see where you like the wider tires for added protection for the rims, but this is why I still have the narrow rims (and the fact that new rims=more money) LOL. My 7 inch rims have lots of protection from my 10.5 inch wides. I can also see where a wider tire can do better in the "cracks" and not high side you.

    As you stated, it depends on your needs. And in all honesty the width of the 12.5 is still "narrow" enough to conform to most of the "points" made in the article keeping in mind the weight of a Montero. I would say the sweet spots for the Montero would have to be a 31/ 9.50 to a 35/ 12.50 tire and depending on needs and let's not forget the tires on those rigs from Iceland. I would have to say without a doubt that they need a crazy wide tire vertically and horizontally.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by basinbeater View Post
    This thread is worthless without pics.
    Don't have any of CRNP but
    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post
    Cruising around the Thule hardpan sipping a beer when the sun burns up on Notch Peak is a thing of absolute beauty
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Another spectacular drive for Bunny would be the first section of the Burr Trail from Boulder. The section through Long Canyon is an absolute beauty of a drive with great side canyons to poke into and it's very good driving as long as it stays dry. I'd probably take any car down the switchbacks without a second thought BUT there are a couple of touchy wash crossings right before getting to UT-276 that may be a problem without a bit of clearance (Subaru clearance that is, nothing special). It would be a bitch to get all the way down there within sight of the pavement and not be able to take it to Bullfrog. and Lake Foul. It's a long drive back up...

    Edit: the google now has street view for the entire Burr Trail from Boulder to the bottom of the switchbacks and up the Notom-Bullfrog road. Crazy! Reminded me that there's a fair bit of pavement after Boulder and all the way through Long Canyon. No real concern until the washes that are before the switchbacks no matter the vehicle.

  12. #37
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    beasinbeater, I feel like we're going in circles about tires due to my poor word choice prior, and bumbling response. For that I'm sorry, and thankful that you've taken the time to respond thoughtfully.

    I'm aware of the arguments and generally agree that pizzacutter A/Ts are the ticket for average use. I've run a few sets of 32x10.5s on a 4Runner and grew up in a FJ60 on 33x10.5s.

    Got 33x11.5 on my Tundra now but it's not an offroad rig... I dig the road manners. The wides have been handy in deep mank snow, tho.

    Love the pics, thanks for sharing.

    In 2009, my 4R was the first rig across the Henry's, as we had to dig through the snowbank at the pass. Great memories of that trip and a few times we were glad for the small size of the truck and the tire setup.

    Many trips off the Burr, Hole in the Rock, Boulder, Old Sheffield, Reef, Butler, Fry, Burch, Horse Tanks, Etc.

    Very fond of that country in general. Such a treasure.

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  13. #38
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    Nice pics man, love it. Ain't no thing about the tires. I like to drive with wide, narrow, big or small tires.

    sent from Utah.
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