IS 5G a Health Hazard That will kill Millions?

[YoEddy]

As an RF Engineer I can unequivocally state the answer is definitely maybe. As with climate change there are so many variables involved that anyone could pitch a case quite convincingly either for or against the 'danger'.

How-fucking-ever let's not (continue to) conflate "5G" with what the real health concerns are, which is specifically the new set of millimeter wave frequencies (28GHz-38GHz) as a new means to deliver 5G service. 5G is simply the evolution of technology (1G = voice calls, 2G = text capabilities, 3G = internet access, 4G = streaming) but a leap forward more significant than all of the other 'G's' combined. 5G improves on latency, connection density, network efficiency, throughput, and traffic capacity that will enable all sorts of technologies we've only dreamed of so far (real-world autonomous cars, IoT, holographic porn ... ).

That said, 5G will also be delivered using existing commercial frequencies from 600MHz-2.7GHz, and newer bands at 3.5GHz as well as 5GHz, which BTW are all microwave frequencies to begin with, but notice nobody is running around telling you to ditch your cell phone, or WiFi because it's going to kill you in the same manner. We fought those battles 20 years ago ... along with high voltage power lines, microwave oven radiation, sunspots, and a lot of other hype.

So when I see comments like this; " Once 4G/5G antennas are densely installed in communities around the globe, no one will be able to escape continuous, involuntary exposure to non-ionizing radiation." ...

I have to laugh because, surprise!, we're already there. It's funny to me that these experts consider the densely installed antennas to be the concern and ignore the fact that we're all carrying one in our pocket (RF power density is 'roughly' a function of transmit power divided by distance so if the distance is zero then ...).

So to summarize - we're all fucked so enjoy the holographic porn while you can.

[Bunion 2020]

^^^ When?

[frorider]

https://www.politico.com/news/agenda...y-chaos-106335

...covers the policy aspects.

Despite the turmoil, there have been some baby steps. Commerce Department and FCC officials seemed to settle some differences in August over 5G standards to safeguard weather forecasting ahead of a global telecom conference.

Apologies in advance to any MAGA snowflakes...like any article on national policy (eg corona virus), this one bumps into the chaos and lack of coordinated leadership in this administration. :shrug:

[YoEddy]

Good article. The the policy cluster-fuck is more about the monetization and use of new spectrum (i.e. the 'scary' millimeter waves), and as with anything money-related the chaos and lack of coordinated leadership from this administration is simply a byproduct of catering to the highest bidder, and not necessarily what's best for general public well-being or even what's the best technological solution.

FWIW we're already several steps behind other countries in the race to 5G so we're not "winning" jack shit. We chose poorly in using millimeter wave frequencies for numerous reasons while the rest of the world took more practical approaches.

[Danno]

we're all fucked so enjoy the holographic porn while you can.

[YoEddy]

^^^ When?

What, 5G?

Technically it's already here, but only sort of no matter what those lying-fuck commercials tell you. T-Mo and Sprint both claim to have "the widest 5G network in the US", but it's all bullshit. The 5G service they provide is actually significantly slower than their current 4G offering, but the phone icon says "5G" so people get all excited. It reminds me when we were transitioning from 3G to 4G and AT&T was the first one out of the gate to claim they had a 4G network, but those in the industry jokingly called it "faux G".

Practically speaking it'll be at least 5 years before we have it in any real-world applicable manner, and 10 years for it to be ubiquitous. Consider that conservative estimates are that the mobile operators will have to spend upwards of $275 Billion to get there. And oh BTW there isn't enough existing fiber in the ground to support it.

[Dantheman]

I am planning a project that places a crew a few feet away from cell antennas on the roof of a building. A consultant placed the FCC radiation exposure limit at 6 minutes...

These things must exponentially become much safer the further away you are? I sure hope so...

All EM radiation is governed by the Inverse Square Law: https://www.softschools.com/formulas...aw_formula/82/

So, yeah, literally exponentially safer as you move further away from the source. Assuming "a few feet" means 3 feet, allowable exposure time at 6 feet would be 24 minutes, at 12 feet it would be 96 minutes, etc.

[YoEddy]

I would add to DTM's post that your consultant apparently used the FCC averaging time of 6 minutes for MPE. Of course there are a lot of variables to consider like will they be standing/working in bore-sight of the antennas or off to the side, what bands are being transmitted and at what power, etc. Being a few feet below the antenna is a lot better than being a few feet directly in bore-sight.

For some light reading:
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/ele...e-exposure.htm

[Ted Striker]

My 'hood is freaking the fuck out!

[Tele 'til You're Smelly]

let's not (continue to) conflate "5G" with what the real health concerns are, which is specifically the new set of millimeter wave frequencies (28GHz-38GHz) as a new means to deliver 5G service.

Thanks for your input. Can you deliver 5G at scale without the new mm wave frequencies? If not it probably doesn't matter if people conflate the two, if so then it seems like there might be better arguments that "5G" opponents could be making.

I have a friend all up in arms about this, but he doesn't wear a seat belt, so . . .

[Ted Striker]

Does you friend carry a cell phone? Wifi in his house?

[ron johnson]

I would like to hear Ron Johnson's opinion on this before just blindly accepting Neufox's opinion.

Sorry, I can't help on this one.

[SB]

The millions who die from Wuhanflu get off easy?

[YoEddy]

... Can you deliver 5G at scale without the new mm wave frequencies? If not it probably doesn't matter if people conflate the two, if so then it seems like there might be better arguments that "5G" opponents could be making.

Good question that made me rethink my original knee-jerk response. Being in the industry I'm painfully familiar with current arguments about the new mmW frequencies and how harmful they can be, and continually have to argue the mmW versus 5G confusion so that's the angle where I was coming from. However, I started to answer your question above as follows:

"At scale" is the question - what devices & technology will require it remains to be seen, but it ultimately depends on uptake and the number of devices in the ecosystem using/requiring the bandwidth. We can deliver real-world 5G functionality today without mmW no problem, but once we invent shiny new toys & applications, and everybody buys into them probably not so much. We'll need more bandwidth than the current commercial cellular frequencies provide. That said mmW is line of sight so it's not going to be used in the same manner as lower 'mobile' frequencies anyway, but it'll have it's own use cases gobbling up bandwidth.

But then I realized that the specific concern of the OG post was really getting at the ever-increasing signal density regardless of frequency.

"Cells" have been getting smaller and smaller over time (densification) to keep up with the capacity and throughput demands. In the "old days" there were maybe one or two tall cell towers in a city and the phone was a 5W bag phone because you needed that much power to get "back" to the tower that could be many miles away. Cell providers used to pay a premium to be at the top of towers to cover as much as possible with one cell, but now they pay that premium to be at the bottom of towers, on low rooftops, etc. That's because they need to limit how far each cell transmits so they can pack more and more cells into the same area to handle the increased capacity needs. As the cells get smaller the amount of power required gets lower for each transmitter (including the mobile devices), but the overall signal density goes up because it's coming from more sources at generally closer proximity. Millimeter Wave will require even more densification out of the gate given it's LOS limitations and relatively poor propagation.

The 5G debate is really about that ever increasing densification required at ALL bands, and not just the new scary ones. More densification means more and more lower power devices in closer proximity to everyone and everything, and overall higher signal density.

So to go full circle -as an RF Engineer I can unequivocally state the answer is definitely maybe.

[seano732]

What, 5G?

Technically it's already here, but only sort of no matter what those lying-fuck commercials tell you. T-Mo and Sprint both claim to have "the widest 5G network in the US", but it's all bullshit. The 5G service they provide is actually significantly slower than their current 4G offering, but the phone icon says "5G" so people get all excited. It reminds me when we were transitioning from 3G to 4G and AT&T was the first one out of the gate to claim they had a 4G network, but those in the industry jokingly called it "faux G".

Practically speaking it'll be at least 5 years before we have it in any real-world applicable manner, and 10 years for it to be ubiquitous. Consider that conservative estimates are that the mobile operators will have to spend upwards of $275 Billion to get there. And oh BTW there isn't enough existing fiber in the ground to support it.

I think he was asking about the holographic porn. If he wasn't, I am........

[Mr. Mike]

I think he was asking about the holographic porn. If he wasn't, I am........

thirded.

[hutash]

Will holographic porn be safe if wearing a tinfoil fedora?

[Tele 'til You're Smelly]

So to go full circle -as an RF Engineer I can unequivocally state the answer is definitely maybe.

thanks- good food for thought, I hadn't really dug into the 5G thing yet

[splat]

As an RF Engineer I can unequivocally state the answer is definitely maybe. As with climate change there are so many variables involved that anyone could pitch a case quite convincingly either for or against the 'danger'.

How-fucking-ever let's not (continue to) conflate "5G" with what the real health concerns are, which is specifically the new set of millimeter wave frequencies (28GHz-38GHz) as a new means to deliver 5G service. 5G is simply the evolution of technology (1G = voice calls, 2G = text capabilities, 3G = internet access, 4G = streaming) but a leap forward more significant than all of the other 'G's' combined. 5G improves on latency, connection density, network efficiency, throughput, and traffic capacity that will enable all sorts of technologies we've only dreamed of so far (real-world autonomous cars, IoT, holographic porn ... ).

That said, 5G will also be delivered using existing commercial frequencies from 600MHz-2.7GHz, and newer bands at 3.5GHz as well as 5GHz, which BTW are all microwave frequencies to begin with, but notice nobody is running around telling you to ditch your cell phone, or WiFi because it's going to kill you in the same manner. We fought those battles 20 years ago ... along with high voltage power lines, microwave oven radiation, sunspots, and a lot of other hype.

So when I see comments like this; " Once 4G/5G antennas are densely installed in communities around the globe, no one will be able to escape continuous, involuntary exposure to non-ionizing radiation." ...

I have to laugh because, surprise!, we're already there. It's funny to me that these experts consider the densely installed antennas to be the concern and ignore the fact that we're all carrying one in our pocket (RF power density is 'roughly' a function of transmit power divided by distance so if the distance is zero then ...).

So to summarize - we're all fucked so enjoy the holographic porn while you can.

.........Good article. The policy cluster-fuck is more about the monetization and use of new spectrum (i.e. the 'scary' millimeter waves), and as with anything money-related the chaos and lack of coordinated leadership from this administration is simply a byproduct of catering to the highest bidder, and not necessarily what's best for general public well-being or even what's the best technological solution.

FWIW we're already several steps behind other countries in the race to 5G so we're not "winning" jack shit. We chose poorly in using millimeter wave frequencies for numerous reasons while the rest of the world took more practical approaches.

Thanks, mang. Appreciate your input. What GHz will that holographic porn be on? I'd like to invest early, if possible.

Note to the TGR holoporn staff - please install that app asap.

[summit]

Holographic pron will be 430-770 THz

[PNWbrit]

Will holographic porn be safe if wearing a tinfoil fedora?

If you wear it on your cock.

Yes.

[This End Up]

Tin foil hats are amateurish. Pros use a full face tin foil helmets.

[hutash]

If you wear it on your cock.

Yes.

Migtht it not be better worn on the right hand?...assuming you are right handed, of course.

[BmillsSkier]

Will holographic porn be safe if wearing a tinfoil fedora?

Yes. It will keep you safe from speaking to women.

Forever.

[PNWbrit]

Migtht it not be better worn on the right hand?...assuming you are right handed, of course.

Foil gloves.