Weight Weenie Touring Tips

[mall walker]

going no beacon is gonna elicit some strong opinions from those of us who tour in places like the Wasatch where, even if you never venture into avalanche terrain, it is not unheard of to stumble upon a full burial (say on an adjacent slope to you or something) and having no beacon means you can't dig them out. in avalanche terrain it also could give rescuers a way to find your carcass, though I guess arguably at that point you might not care. I find it hard to justify going without beacon/shovel/probe for any reason but I also buckle my seatbelt before I put the car in drive no matter where I'm going so ymmv.

[teamdirt]

You're a fucking idiot. And you can't spell.
Take a lap.

Lol- get back to squirting lemon juice on ur sore vag....while ur frothing about how to clean ur platapus wanker.

What did skiers/snowboarders do before avi bags? Make good decisions-and if they didn’t know they didn’t go...unfortunately fat skis has made Inexperienced warriors self righteous...lol

[Mofro261]

If worried about the weight of your weenie go for the circumcision.

[Boissal]

Lol- get back to squirting lemon juice on ur sore vag....while ur frothing about how to clean ur platapus wanker.

What did skiers/snowboarders do before avi bags? Make good decisions-and if they didn’t know they didn’t go...unfortunately fat skis has made Inexperienced warriors self righteous...lol

Because there's never been a reported avi death before the airbag era? Do you even think before posting?
Sounds like one thing you must carry in the bc is a solid shovel, you obviously have experience digging holes for yourself.

[teamdirt]

Thou shalt not disagree with the Dawson Dogma is one of the rules on Wildsnow. That extends to his guest bloggers. The comments will be of the ball-gargling variety along with a few suggestions for even lighter and less practical pack optioins.

What's bladder sanitation or cleaning? One squirt of lemon juice halfway through the winter is all it needs.


You're a fucking idiot. And you can't spell.
Take a lap.

Because there's never been a reported avi death before the airbag era? Do you even think before posting?
Sounds like one thing you must carry in the bc is a solid shovel, you obviously have experience digging holes for yourself.

Ur an idiot-

The airbag is giving inexperienced users a false sense of safety.

Airbags can save u from asphyxiation. Very few people die from that in an avalanche. Most die from trauma....

Airbags dont save u from trauma,maybe u only ski alpine since there are no trees in Utah...cough-cough sarcasm!

[mall walker]

Airbags can save u from asphyxiation. Very few people die from that in an avalanche. Most die from trauma....maybe u only ski alpine since there are no trees in Utah?

it's like 75% asphyxiation and 25% trauma in US last I read... and I think 50% asphyxiation and 50% trauma in Canada ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2645441/ )

glad to read more of your expert thoughts tho

[2clue]

Ur an idiot-

The airbag is giving inexperienced users a false sense of safety.

Airbags can save u from asphyxiation. Very few people die from that in an avalanche. Most die from trauma....maybe u only ski alpine since there are no trees in Utah? Don’t need to worry about consequences of trauma?

Let me guess, you boot up couloirs without your helmet on also?

[muted]

Shaving weight with water and food seems like a bad idea when shit hits the fan and you are waiting to be rescued or spending the night outside. Same goes to extra pair of socks, extra midlayer...it's dead weight until you really, really need all that shit.

teamdirt, do you wear a helmet? You sound like you've banged your head a few times.

[teamdirt]

Thou shalt not disagree with the Dawson Dogma is one of the rules on Wildsnow. That extends to his guest bloggers. The comments will be of the ball-gargling variety along with a few suggestions for even lighter and less practical pack optioins.

What's bladder sanitation or cleaning? One squirt of lemon juice halfway through the winter is all it needs.


You're a fucking idiot. And you can't spell.
Take a lap.

Let me guess, you boot up couloirs without your helmet on also?

Tough crowd...

Never skied a couloir....

I guess I Need to get use to the fact REI co-op warriors r the new Doug Coombs of skiing...

[Huskier]

I never tour without bacon.

In that case I'd go extra crispy. Or better yet bacon bits. Max weight savings.

[Boissal]

Ur an idiot-

No you're the puppet.

The airbag is giving inexperienced users a false sense of safety.
Airbags can save u from asphyxiation. Very few people die from that in an avalanche. Most die from trauma....

Whoa, what novel thinking that hasn't been debunked before. Clearly you're of a superior intellect and are making very valid arguments using solid data. Your ability to make a point is second to none and your spelling is nothing short of spectacular. I retreat from this fight, hope we can stop now.

Back to the topic at hand, I agree with tgapp that UL packs tend to carry like shit, probably due to their lack of frame. A 30L loaded to the gills for a day in the alpine can get really uncomfortable once you throw skis on it and start booting. I'd happily pay a small weight penalty for a pack that is a bit more supportive and doesn't shred my shoulders. I don't mind a few extra grams if it means my soaked skins are not in the same pocket as my dry stuff, or my crampons aren't tearing holes in my puffy. And I like having a zippered pocket on the waist belt to store food. All these bells and whistles add up to 200g or so, not enough to be worried about in my book... But I'm not doing 15k days in remote CO ranges.

Edit: anyone seen the episode of the 50 in which Cody goes through his packing list? Yeah, we've probably all seen it. That made me re-think a few things. Should link to that video in the comments to TG's post on Wildsnow. And as MW said, I very much doubt he makes anyone carry his shit...

[galibier_numero_un]

What's bladder sanitation or cleaning? One squirt of lemon juice halfway through the winter is all it needs.

The following may belong in the current OCD thread ...

going no beacon is gonna elicit some strong opinions from those of us who tour in places like the Wasatch where, even if you never venture into avalanche terrain, it is not unheard of to stumble upon a full burial (say on an adjacent slope to you or something) and having no beacon means you can't dig them out. in avalanche terrain it also could give rescuers a way to find your carcass, though I guess arguably at that point you might not care. I find it hard to justify going without beacon/shovel/probe for any reason but I also buckle my seatbelt before I put the car in drive no matter where I'm going so ymmv.

^^^ this ^^^

Rescuing someone else, as well as being considerate to someone who just might have to recover your body ... both compelling reasons to always carry B-S-P.

Shaving weight with water and food seems like a bad idea when shit hits the fan and you are waiting to be rescued or spending the night outside. Same goes to extra pair of socks, extra midlayer...it's dead weight until you really, really need all that shit.

Food, water, extra insulation ... safety gear.

Also, everyone is different, but I find my performance and mental acuity suffer when I'm dehydrated. I will load up on as many fluids and calories beforehand as is practical however, in order to maximize my initial fuel load.

I still haven't found a water solution I'm happy with (tried Hydroflasks & soft flasks, backblowing a bladder, etc), but I think that mall walker is on to something with his insulated shoulder strap hydration sleeve. Of any system I've seen, that seems the most effective for drinking on the go.

I think, for pack weights anyway, there's a bigger difference in having a pack carry better but weigh slightly more than a pack that carries poorly and saves weight. I find that my BD Jetforce, while heavy as sin, is not as annoying to ski with as many other lighter packs simply because it has a number of features that help the pack load my skeletal frame directly (all features that add weight) - load lifters, a real frame, compression straps, internal organization, etc. On long days, my core is less tired when skiing with a pack that is loaded properly and is weighting my frame correctly.

I'm not saying that solution is the end-all (it's only one pack in my quiver, for days when an airbag makes sense or for when my wife asks me to take one), but my complaint with UL packs which lack framesheets and organization is that they just slump on your back, everything gets wet inside (no organization), and it's not like saving a pound or two on my back is going to let me ski another lap. For a non airbag pack of similar feature quality, I'd look at something like the Patagonia Descentionist or the new touring packs by Blue Ice. Those guys are sweet.

I do think that taking inventory of what you take touring to assess it's necessity is a helpful, Marie Kondo-esque exercise; if you're consistently taking 3 liters on all day tours but only every drink one of them, maybe you should cut back by a liter. Instead of taking a whole block of skin wax, just take a sliver of it. Ditch the gross bars that have sat in your pack forever. Streamline your layering system, and don't take the kitchen sink in your first aid kit (I carry an alu splint, an UL bivy, blood clotter, duct tape, hand warmers, and pain pills now - that's it).

As for cutting weight in other areas, I highly recommend it and I think it's a much more practical exercise than trying to slim down pack weight.. You probably don't need those Cochise 130 burly big boy boots every day, even if there are days when you want them. Get a slightly narrower set of sticks with lighter weight bindings, and see how your legs feel after a 5k day. Ditch the brakes. Ski with a lighter set of poles.

^^^ packs that carry well are non-negotiable for me ^^^

Weight on your feet ... at a minimum, start by saving weight on bindings (consider skis & boots as your comfort level permits). Bindings are a no-brainer way to dump 200-400g off each foot.

... Thom

[Dantheman]

If teamdirt is still skiing lines like this: https://www.tetongravity.com/video/s...-Rocket-966543

Then, yeah, not much need for an airbag I suppose. Claiming that most avalanche victims die from trauma is just completely, totally wrong.

[Huskier]

going no beacon is gonna elicit some strong opinions from those of us who tour in places like the Wasatch where, even if you never venture into avalanche terrain, it is not unheard of to stumble upon a full burial (say on an adjacent slope to you or something) and having no beacon means you can't dig them out. in avalanche terrain it also could give rescuers a way to find your carcass, though I guess arguably at that point you might not care. I find it hard to justify going without beacon/shovel/probe for any reason but I also buckle my seatbelt before I put the car in drive no matter where I'm going so ymmv.

I've thought about the ethics of this too. I frequently tour solo (sometimes out of necessity, sometimes not). The line of "And who's going to dig you out?" Often comes to mind, and leads one to make much, much more conservative choices, really out of necessity. Being a good Samaritan or having an opportunity to save someone's 🥓 is a sweet thought, but let's be real: unless you're yo-yoing the same terrain in proximity, you're more likely to encounter a recovery situation than a rescue. I think a more compelling argument for always-carry (at least until spring) is as a fail-safe against your own stupidity (i.e B/S/P live in your pack no matter what so there's no chance of forgetting something at home). You're never caught with your pants down and gives you experience to dial the most efficient gear packing/carrying solution. And at the end of the day, it's all training weight anyway.

[Boissal]

I've thought about the ethics of this too. I frequently tour solo (sometimes out of necessity, sometimes not). The line of "And who's going to dig you out?" Often comes to mind, and leads one to make much, much more conservative choices, really out of necessity. Being a good Samaritan or having an opportunity to save someone's �� is a sweet thought, but let's be real: unless you're yo-yoing the same terrain in proximity, you're more likely to encounter a recovery situation than a rescue. I think a more compelling argument for always-carry (at least until spring) is as a fail-safe against your own stupidity (i.e B/S/P live in your pack no matter what so there's no chance of forgetting something at home). You're never caught with your pants down and gives you experience to dial the most efficient gear packing/carrying solution. And at the end of the day, it's all training weight anyway.

Wasn't there a live recovery in the past 2 years in the Wasatch by a party that happened to be in the same drainage? Mark White / Cardiac??
I used to think digging out someone you're not touring with was a purely hypothetical scenario but my views have changed a lot these past few seasons. Regardless, to me the beacon is like the seat belt in the car. If I have ski boots on I'm wearing my beacon regardless of conditions. Same for shovel and probe, they come along even for corn tours. You never know when you're going to need to build yourself a nice table or probe around to win a bet regarding depth of the snowpack...

[kootenayskier]

I tour constantly in a community where nobody uses an airbag, and the only time I see them are on the backs of clueless Euros and dads on vacation whose wife wouldn’t have it otherwise. I understand there are circumstances where they make sense (lift serviced Euro free-riding and heli guiding), but anyone implying they’re essential is just revealing their fear and ignorance. They certainly don’t belong in any serious discussion about saving weight while ski-touring. Packing for a 10 day ski traverse in Alaska or BC, when every gram counts, the last thing anyone is going bring is an airbag ...... but when following the hoards on dawn patrol, bring whatever satisfies that consuming itch.

Keeping weight at a minimum is a process of elimination, as per Saint Exupery: “Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”.

[mall walker]

I've thought about the ethics of this too. I frequently tour solo (sometimes out of necessity, sometimes not). The line of "And who's going to dig you out?" Often comes to mind, and leads one to make much, much more conservative choices, really out of necessity. Being a good Samaritan or having an opportunity to save someone's 肋 is a sweet thought, but let's be real: unless you're yo-yoing the same terrain in proximity, you're more likely to encounter a recovery situation than a rescue. I think a more compelling argument for always-carry (at least until spring) is as a fail-safe against your own stupidity (i.e B/S/P live in your pack no matter what so there's no chance of forgetting something at home). You're never caught with your pants down and gives you experience to dial the most efficient gear packing/carrying solution. And at the end of the day, it's all training weight anyway.

For sure. I am a big fan of ritualizing any sort of safety procedures, for example making it a habit/instinct/ritual/whatever you wanna call it to turn my beacon on in the car before putting my touring boots on. Then once it's a habit, you don't have to think "well am I solo, do I need to do this," it's just a subconscious thing that happens and you're always prepared. Some people get very reactionary about the idea of training yourself in this way, but people forget shit. Remember that Hayden Kennedy situation a couple years ago? I just don't wanna forget. (In fairness, in the Wasatch, you really honestly might watch someone in a completely different party or another solo person trigger a slide and go dig them out, it has happened multiple times)

Wasn't there a live recovery in the past 2 years in the Wasatch by a party that happened to be in the same drainage? Mark White / Cardiac??
I used to think digging out someone you're not touring with was a purely hypothetical scenario but my views have changed a lot these past few seasons. Regardless, to me the beacon is like the seat belt in the car. If I have ski boots on I'm wearing my beacon regardless of conditions. Same for shovel and probe, they come along even for corn tours. You never know when you're going to need to build yourself a nice table or probe around to win a bet regarding depth of the snowpack...

I think that one was longer ago, but Aaron Rice dug someone out in Grizzly more recently... those 2 at least stick in my mind, maybe there's others idk

[californiagrown]

shovel and probe, they come along even for corn tours. You never know when you're going to need to build yourself a nice table or probe around to win a bet regarding depth of the snowpack...

Or to build a quick booter, or a snow couch, or to be annoying and smack your partner in the butt from 320cm away. Lots of uses, really.

[mall walker]

^ that’s why it’s important not to skimp out on probe length even in shallower snowpacks

[Boissal]

I tour constantly in a community where nobody uses an airbag, and the only time I see them are on the backs of clueless Euros and dads on vacation whose wife wouldn’t have it otherwise. I understand there are circumstances where they make sense (lift serviced Euro free-riding and heli guiding), but anyone implying they’re essential is just revealing their fear and ignorance. They certainly don’t belong in any serious discussion about saving weight while ski-touring. Packing for a 10 day ski traverse in Alaska or BC, when every gram counts, the last thing anyone is going bring is an airbag ...... but when following the hoards on dawn patrol, bring whatever satisfies that consuming itch.

Keeping weight at a minimum is a process of elimination, as per Saint Exupery: “Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”.

The OP's initial parameters included an airbag. It's pretty clear it doesn't fit in the fast and light or multi-day adventure picture and I don't think anyone's arguing that... For half-day outings where vert is limited and time isn't of the essence it's very much a personal call, on the same level as ski width and boot stiffness. I don't think stating flat out that they don't belong anywhere outside of AK heli terrain or Cham "sidecountry" makes a lot of sense. But we're drifting in a different conversation here.

[TG]

I like this idea. What bladder are you using? Something like this?

Attachment 316548

How is that the drink from? Seem like it would be prone to spilling all over your face unless it’s held “just so”.

something called a cnoc vecto



makes a huge opening to fill with snow
bomber, has not leaked on me in around 200 days.

great for summer , scooping up a bunch of water in a hurry.

[zion zig zag]

I had great luck with using a bladder to carry water (can't remember if it was platypus or MSR) until I didn't. And when I didn't it was a catastrophic failure of soaked contents half way through a day tour. So I'm back to a regular old nalgene bottle now.

[TG]

For sure. I am a big fan of ritualizing any sort of safety procedures, for example making it a habit/instinct/ritual/whatever you wanna call it to turn my beacon on in the car before putting my touring boots on.

you got Travers boots and you don't drive in them??? boots on in your warm house on a comfy chair in the early morning is one of the biggest luxuries there is.

back to weight weenies discussion....

[mall walker]

you got Travers boots and you don't drive in them??? boots on in your warm house on a comfy chair in the early morning is one of the biggest luxuries there is.

back to weight weenies discussion....

haha, I can but I haven't been... I roll up to the trailhead in those north face down booties, which are nice to put back on my frozen feet after mornings like today. maybe I oughta change the routine up though

[teamdirt]

Thou shalt not disagree with the Dawson Dogma is one of the rules on Wildsnow. That extends to his guest bloggers. The comments will be of the ball-gargling variety along with a few suggestions for even lighter and less practical pack optioins.

What's bladder sanitation or cleaning? One squirt of lemon juice halfway through the winter is all it needs.


You're a fucking idiot. And you can't spell.
Take a lap.

I tour constantly in a community where nobody uses an airbag, and the only time I see them are on the backs of clueless Euros and dads on vacation whose wife wouldn’t have it otherwise. I understand there are circumstances where they make sense (lift serviced Euro free-riding and heli guiding), but anyone implying they’re essential is just revealing their fear and ignorance. They certainly don’t belong in any serious discussion about saving weight while ski-touring. Packing for a 10 day ski traverse in Alaska or BC, when every gram counts, the last thing anyone is going bring is an airbag ...... but when following the hoards on dawn patrol, bring whatever satisfies that consuming itch.

Keeping weight at a minimum is a process of elimination, as per Saint Exupery: “Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”.

Maybe 1 person of 25+ or so I tour/ sled and shred with uses one.