It's too crowded, no one goes there anymore

[SB]

Don't think there are any Neil Young skiing music videos so JD 1 NY 0

[LesterSmoove]

I can see SLC... but do people actually fly into DEN and then drive up to Jackson? What a fucking nightmare!

yeah flying to denver to drive here is crazy, unless you're doing an extended ikon road trip beginning and ending at DIA. is it a hard and fast rule that rental SUVs or fleet vehicles are the only ones with the red CO plates? I'm seeing mostly green plates. whether or not it's denver people storm chasing with last minute stays or whether they long ago booked cheap downtown lodging for prime february dates, we're seeing a massive influx of people from ikon pass, heavily concentrated in february, and my sense is that storm chasing is way up too. and so I just become an insufferable prick online when people say "it's just because it was a great pow day" or "JH has always been crazy"

I've lived in denver, boulder, and fort collins and dealt with the misery of i70. it is not at all surprising to me that out of all the ikon passholders there, enough of them braved the shitty wyoming roads instead of dealing with a predictable i70 clusterfuck for us to notice the difference.

people can say "I skied JH in 2002 and it was crowded then too..." or whatever else. yeah, it's always been busy here on a pow day, but it hasn't been 5-box wait all day. the difference between an all-day 3-box wait and an all-day 5-box wait adds up. and when tram is crazy in the morning, it hasn't been normal for teewinot, gondi, and the new sweetwater lift to also spill hundreds of yards out of the gates. for people to ski off the teewinot lift and directly into the AV lift line. and there have been more than a few sunny weekdays with sublette/thunder spilling out the maze at least until 1:00pm, which is not normal. In any case, they need to find a way to spread out that demand wherever the passholders are coming from, and I think a bucket list place like JHMR does better financially when they market themselves in opposition to the megapass shitshow.

whether it's reservations and cap on ikon passholders or whether they ditch the pass and do dynamic creative ticket pricing and highlight the whole bucket list lower crowd thing, it's a challenge for sure.

[Bunion 2020]

IKON Blackout starting on Saturday. See what kind of difference it makes.

[123ski]

IKON Blackout starting on Saturday. See what kind of difference it makes.

I felt a major difference during the last blackout and over Christmas/New Years blackout.

[Woodsy]

I felt a major difference during the last blackout and over Christmas/New Years blackout.

Blackouts are usually during PEAK times ( AKA pres weekend) so imagine difference is made up by tourons

[123ski]

You claim nobody cares about our opinions at VAIL or Alterra. I beg to differ. Photos and videos hitting mainstream news outlets will always cause the resorts to care:

VAIL ISSUES APOLOGY FOR EPIC LIFT LINE WAIT TIMES
https://www.powder.com/stories/vail-...T0-YkTxu9puppo

DEER VALLEY WANTS TO BETTER MANAGE CROWDS AFTER FIRST YEAR OF IKON PASS
https://www.aspentimes.com/news/deer...-of-ikon-pass/

ALTERRA CEO: WE DON'T WANT IKON PASS TO OVERRUN SKI RESORTS
https://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/...-XYFb8qGqDdBKw

IKON EPIC SKIING CROWDS
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/t...ng-crowds.html

ARE SKI RESORTS GETTING TOO CROWDED, YES AND NO
https://www.wsj.com/articles/are-ski...no-11581015692


also, doesn't a "Rusty Gregory" seem like something you'd find on Urban Dictionary?

[SB]

" I have complete confidence in our team at Vail Mountain and the huge investment we’ve made in high-speed chairlifts to alleviate lift line concerns across our resort. I am confident this was an isolated incident in the midst of extreme conditions.”

So they aint gonna do shit about it.

[skaredshtles]

" I have complete confidence in our team at Vail Mountain and the huge investment we’ve made in high-speed chairlifts to alleviate lift line concerns across our resort. I am confident this was an isolated incident in the midst of extreme conditions.”

So they aint gonna do shit about it.

They aren't - but the bolded statement is true.

[fastfred]

You claim nobody cares about our opinions at VAIL or Alterra. I beg to differ. Photos and videos hitting mainstream news outlets will always cause the resorts to care:

VAIL ISSUES APOLOGY FOR EPIC LIFT LINE WAIT TIMES
https://www.powder.com/stories/vail-...T0-YkTxu9puppo

DEER VALLEY WANTS TO BETTER MANAGE CROWDS AFTER FIRST YEAR OF IKON PASS
https://www.aspentimes.com/news/deer...-of-ikon-pass/

ALTERRA CEO: WE DON'T WANT IKON PASS TO OVERRUN SKI RESORTS
https://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/...-XYFb8qGqDdBKw

IKON EPIC SKIING CROWDS
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/t...ng-crowds.html

ARE SKI RESORTS GETTING TOO CROWDED, YES AND NO
https://www.wsj.com/articles/are-ski...no-11581015692


also, doesn't a "Rusty Gregory" seem like something you'd find on Urban Dictionary?

It's called a rusty trombone bro

and yeah all the PR pieces robby d-bag katz has been writing all weekend are top notch
if you read the peace in the vail daily it's almost sure that they paid off a bunch of people to say great things in the comment section
I'm wondering how many of those peace of work comment writers were actually standing in line that day or sitting by the fire in their condo waiting to get free lift tickets for posting big atta boys for rob and company

[Meadow Skipper]

[video=youtube;XM5wA2L4MPE]Don't think there are any Neil Young skiing music videos so JD 1 NY 0

He’s seemed more interested in surfin’...at least at some point.

[ill-advised strategy]

Fixed linkies:

He’s seemed more interested in surfin’...at least at some point.

[muted]

It's called a rusty trombone bro

and yeah all the PR pieces robby d-bag katz has been writing all weekend are top notch
if you read the peace in the vail daily it's almost sure that they paid off a bunch of people to say great things in the comment section
I'm wondering how many of those peace of work comment writers were actually standing in line that day or sitting by the fire in their condo waiting to get free lift tickets for posting big atta boys for rob and company

As a low budget contractor enjoying success due to absolutely nothing more than living in a popular ski town in Colorado, I do understand how you have no concept of how any successful business owner cares about customer service But it happens, I know that must be surprising. Don’t get me wrong, I have no love for corps that have ruined skiing, but all you smug guys trying to teach us adults about how business works is coming across, um, as naive and jaded for jaded sake. And this is coming from one of the most negative jaded people you will ever meet. Love you Fred, don’t change, but c’mon .

Only reason Katz won’t change how things are because he’s too dumb to figure out a solutiom, not because he doesn’t think he’s gonna lose money because of overcrowding.

[fastfred]

^^ jaded is a good start to describing me I"m probably jaded as hell thanks for the feedback ski town living gives you a great perspective on life and people and I'm convinced everyone is full of shit

[Foggy_Goggles]

not because he doesn’t think he’s gonna lose money because of overcrowding

You wanna Econ 101 this for me? I was too hungover in class last week to understand what was going on.

Businesses rarely invest in additional infrastructure (fixed cost) to accommodate peak demand. The may add variable cost (labor typically) when practical. Think about the grocery store on the days before Thanksgiving...lines out the door. They don't build a new grocery. Customer expect the business and the smart ones shop of peak. Problem with powder days is that can be predicted with enough certainty and time for the business to add labor and the customers generally have lives that are too busy to ski off peak.

I'm far from an apologist for Vail. That said I'm almost smart enough to understand that publicly traded corporations are legally obligated to maximize shareholder value. I do know a couple of people in senior-ish management positions at a couple of ski areas both in and out of the megapass system. The feedback I get it that nobody views increased business as a problem.

For context, 30min. lift lines were the norm on the good days before high speed lifts. I got friends that grew up skiing at Winter Park. They used to go all day and see if they could get 10 runs on the Eskimo.

[m2711c]

man, in the 70’s, we used to wait 20 minutes for the 5 minute ride up the t-bar for a 1 minute run down south at snowridge....

in jeans using cubco clamps.















get the fuck off my lawn!

[raisingarizona13]

All of that from Foggy. ^

Anyone that thinks a business is going to be off put from having too many customers doesn't really get it. You-we aren't as important as we like to think we are.

So luckily we still have choices. You can accept the changes and adapt or you can ski somewhere else. As I've mentioned before there's still plenty of fine ski areas that aren't part of the mega passes or get those sorts of crowds and probably never will. You don't have to keep skiing Teton Village or Summit County.

I left Jackson nearly 20 years ago now. I miss some of it, definitely old friends but I don't love what the Village has become. It would have been fun to have stayed and continue to develop my skiing for the remainder of my 20's into my mid 30's but that's behind me now. I don't think it's the center of the skiing universe like I once did. there's a lot of other places to enjoy. Maybe not with 400+ inches every year and big, steep cliff lines with clean take offs but you find other ways to have fun and challenge yourself.

But if you're complaining about the changes but keep skiing at the places your complaining about than that's on you really. No one is forcing you to ski there.

[skaredshtles]

<snip> I'm convinced everyone is full of shit

That's not due to ski town living.

That's due to getting old.

[Timberridge]

Arizona13, are you saying that the halcyon days of visiting the Alpenrose breakfast buffet and pocketing cold cuts and few slices of bread for cheap, slopeside lunch are gone? If that's the case, fuck Jackson, I'll spend my $ somewhere else.

[raisingarizona13]

Arizona13, are you saying that the halcyon days of visiting the Alpenrose breakfast buffet and pocketing cold cuts and few slices of bread for cheap, slopeside lunch are gone? If that's the case, fuck Jackson, I'll spend my $ somewhere else.

Haha! I bet there's still some poach-able buffets and complimentary coffee counters in some of those hotels. Or, at least I hope so. Can you still grab and hand full of saltines and a bottle of green tobasco sauce up at Casper? That was my go to lunch spot for a couple of seasons

[muted]

You wanna Econ 101 this for me? I was too hungover in class last week to understand what was going on.

All of that from Foggy. ^

Anyone that thinks a business is going to be off put from having too many customers doesn't really get it. You-we aren't as important as we like to think we are.

There's overcrowding and just being really busy. You guys are explaining a busy resort, everyone here gets how busy resorts work, thank you. Overcrowding is a customer service issue, whether the CEOs care or not. And it's not just a few weekends anymore that you simply avoid. Shit has changed, and if you haven't seen it to understand, good for you. It doesn't sound like you guys really have seen the worst of it. it's certainly not the entire country.

[Timberridge]

I'm all for progress, and I'm not saying go back to the days when the K2 Four ruled Apres Vous mountain, but it sounds like things have changed at JH. And not for the better.

[singlecross]

T-bars accessing expert terrain for local season pass holders are the answer. Cheap, reliable, and iKon millennials won’t want to ride them or know how.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Overcrowding is a customer service issue, whether the CEOs care or not

Yeah..but...'merica. If the product the ski areas are providing isn't worth the price you are paying, don't buy it. It's self regulating. The ski areas could certainly do better to manage the crowds to enhance the experience but if you want to wait in line, that's on you.

Interestingly, if you are talking about Colorado, this supports the whole idea of letting I70 be the valve if the resorts are at capacity.

As an alternative, what do you proposed and how much are you willing to pay for it?


Here is a little blub on the reservation system at the Aguille du Midi https://www.chamonet.com/lifts/ski/b...ft-time-676473 Would that help at Jackson or Big Sky?

[toast2266]

I'm far from an apologist for Vail. That said I'm almost smart enough to understand that publicly traded corporations are legally obligated to maximize shareholder value. I do know a couple of people in senior-ish management positions at a couple of ski areas both in and out of the megapass system. The feedback I get it that nobody views increased business as a problem.

Sure, but there's an easy argument to be made that current pass structures lead to crowding issues, which yields a short term gain but a long term decline in people that are going to visit the resort.

Some family of 5 goes to Vail for their winter vacation and spends half their time standing in line. Sure, Vail makes bank off of them. But will they return? And will those kids associate skiing with fun and become lifelong customers, or do they associate skiing mostly with standing around in the cold when they'd rather be playing call of duty or whatever.

That seems representative of plenty of corporate America - maximize shareholder value immediately with minimal emphasis on long term sustainability.

[raisingarizona13]

I'm all for progress, and I'm not saying go back to the days when the K2 Four ruled Apres Vous mountain, but it sounds like things have changed at JH. And not for the better.

Oh yeah. I'm hoping to get up to Jackson next season to share the place with my daughter and visit old friends but other than that I don't see myself visiting again in the foreseeable future. It's too far and expensive. there's really quiet skiing down here in the four corners and the San Juans are just up the road. Southern Colorado is kind of a safe spot from this sort of crowding. Shit, I might retire form ski area skiing once my daughter gets into college.