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  1. #301
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    Nov 2008
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    704
    But one thing never changes and makes or breaks a ski hill, fall line! And Jackson has that in spades!

  2. #302
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Paradise
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Sure, but there's an easy argument to be made that current pass structures lead to crowding issues, which yields a short term gain but a long term decline in people that are going to visit the resort.

    Some family of 5 goes to Vail for their winter vacation and spends half their time standing in line. Sure, Vail makes bank off of them. But will they return? And will those kids associate skiing with fun and become lifelong customers, or do they associate skiing mostly with standing around in the cold when they'd rather be playing call of duty or whatever.

    That seems representative of plenty of corporate America - maximize shareholder value immediately with minimal emphasis on long term sustainability.
    I don't think these mega pass corporate ski companies are looking at the long term gain, they are looking to make it big in the short term and then.........global warming.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  3. #303
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    6,169
    Discounted cash flow (DCF) is a valuation method used to estimate the value of an investment based on its future cash flows. ... DCF analysis finds the present value of expected future cash flows using a discount rate. A present value estimate is then used to evaluate a potential investment.
    Whether publicly traded stocks actually trade at their intrinsic value is above by pay grade but you get the idea.

    You are kinda making my point. What about the idea that the mega passes will increase in price until the resorts operate at but not above capacity? Remember skiing is the loss leader. You know what most businesses do when they can't keep up with demand right?

  4. #304
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
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    1,454
    Quote Originally Posted by singlecross View Post
    T-bars accessing expert terrain for local season pass holders are the answer. Cheap, reliable, and iKon millennials won’t want to ride them or know how.
    This is how Crested Butte works. I and why I'm worried about them upgrading the North Face Lift from a t bar to a chair.

    Of course Highlands Bowl just blows off the lift altogether, which also works.

  5. #305
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Hell Track
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    9,234
    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona13 View Post
    I don't think these mega pass corporate ski companies are looking at the long term gain, they are looking to make it big in the short term and then.........global warming.
    Probably true. Seems unnecessarily pessimistic though.

  6. #306
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    land of the free
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    9,611
    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona13 View Post
    Haha! I bet there's still some poach-able buffets and complimentary coffee counters in some of those hotels. Or, at least I hope so. Can you still grab and hand full of saltines and a bottle of green tobasco sauce up at Casper? That was my go to lunch spot for a couple of seasons
    Sadly no. And Casper is not the affordable eats anymore. I remember pb&j and hotdogs on the menu. Now it’s $15 sammich

    But yeah, saltine and pickle relish and hot sauce is more tasty than you think.
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
    Hunter S. Thompson

  7. #307
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    363
    Quote Originally Posted by beer30 View Post
    But one thing never changes and makes or breaks a ski hill, SE facing sun affected fall line! And Jackson has that in spades!
    fixed it for you

    JHMR's dirty little secret

    in bounds you're lucky if you get just a few degrees N of E
    true north facing = granite canyon

    Tower 3 = NE
    Cody = NE
    Alta Chutes = NE
    Corbett's = NE
    and that's the very best of it

    Bowl = pure South
    Headwall = SE
    Hobacks = SE
    Lower Faces = SE

    Any time you think you're skiing North Facing, it's probably ESE

    now we've passed January, get ready for sun fucked snow.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #308
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    Splat's Garage
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    3,497
    Quote Originally Posted by TG View Post
    fixed it for you

    JHMR's dirty little secret

    in bounds you're lucky if you get just a few degrees N of E
    true north facing = granite canyon

    Tower 3 = NE
    Cody = NE
    Alta Chutes = NE
    Corbett's = NE
    and that's the very best of it

    Bowl = pure South
    Headwall = SE
    Hobacks = SE
    Lower Faces = SE

    Any time you think you're skiing North Facing, it's probably ESE

    now we've passed January, get ready for sun fucked snow.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'd say that helps build up a more solid snow pack over the months, and is why JH is known for some rowdy lines.

    Is it a secret?

  9. #309
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    land of the free
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    How is that a dirty little secret?
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
    Hunter S. Thompson

  10. #310
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    854
    I had a 12 boat wait at Snowbird once - that wasn’t even feasible before Ikon. I laugh when you talk about 5 cars at JH


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  11. #311
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
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    outer spokanistan
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona13 View Post
    I don't think these mega pass corporate ski companies are looking at the long term gain, they are looking to make it big in the short term and then..........
    true
    'nuff said....

    .
    "we all do dumb shit when we're fucked up" mike tyson

  12. #312
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    Sep 2006
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    Utah
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    Too much demand on high demand days is obvious.

    On the other hand, the resort wants to increase the number of skiers overall so that off peak days aren’t quite as empty. However, now matter how much marketing they do, everyone still seems to come on the same day. Which simply means the resort is not doing a great job at demand planning and revenue management.

    I think we’ve done a good job covering disparate pass prices. Passes that cause people to ski midweek would certainly help. Passes that black out on powder days would help. Passes with more blackouts would help. More expensive passes would help.


    However, I also believe the resorts that have overcrowding issues need to help disperse crowds across the mountain more efficiently.

    The number one thing that would help on crowded days (besides limiting the number of guests) would be installing real time lift line information at the top and bottom of every lift. This type of signage is inexpensive and fairly effective (look at Disney). For the signs to function effectively, the queue data must be updated constantly so that the information is actually helpful to the customers. If, skiers used the sign information as they ski even close to how well queue signs are used by customers for decision making across other industries (about 50% usage) to choose their next lift, the resort’s lift facilities will be used more efficiently. Other industries that have done this have seen close to a 40% decrease in the number of customers that have to wait in line for more than 10 minutes.

    It would also certainly help to increase the number of ski patrollers so that terrain can open more quickly after a storm.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  13. #313
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    Sep 2006
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    Utah
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    854
    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    Whether publicly traded stocks actually trade at their intrinsic value is above by pay grade but you get the idea.

    You are kinda making my point. What about the idea that the mega passes will increase in price until the resorts operate at but not above capacity? Remember skiing is the loss leader. You know what most businesses do when they can't keep up with demand right?
    It’s only the loss leader for Vail.

    Resorts on Ikon that aren’t owned by Ikon are not getting anywhere close to the economics that Vail is getting with Epic


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  14. #314
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    Sep 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    854
    Here is one other point to consider.

    Resorts love families. Families spend more on food, lodging, rentals, and lessons than any other group.

    But families are full of beginner and intermediate skiers (for the most part) and generally have a bigger impact on degrading service standards than do expert skiers.

    So balancing this against the prospective increase in the potential erosion of long-term profits from expert skiers who cannot tolerate the degrading service standard (long wait times and over crowded runs) is something every resort deals with.

    Not defending the resorts, but if we weren’t all dirtbags they’d probably cater to us more.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  15. #315
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    167
    Quote Originally Posted by 123ski View Post
    However, I also believe the resorts that have overcrowding issues need to help disperse crowds across the mountain more efficiently.



    It would also certainly help to increase the number of ski patrollers so that terrain can open more quickly after a storm.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Case in point - Big Sky. On a recent, non weekend powder day. Only two lifts really out of the base. One lift on hold briefly, the other they couldn't get running for some reason until 10am. Result? Massive, read 45min wait on the one running chair with no other lift to run to.



    Quote Originally Posted by 123ski View Post
    I had a 12 boat wait at Snowbird once - that wasn’t even feasible before Ikon. I laugh when you talk about 5 cars at JH


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    One hour wait in the tram line this last weekend. All day long !! Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday - probably 3 or 4 car first thing a.m.. 1 or 2 max otherwise with walk on trams late afternoon.

    Lots and lots of weekenders from Utah and Colorado.

    We now redirect you back to the "Ikon Pass" thread.

  16. #316
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Encinitas CA
    Posts
    88
    Quote Originally Posted by 123ski View Post
    Too much demand on high demand days is obvious.

    On the other hand, the resort wants to increase the number of skiers overall so that off peak days aren’t quite as empty. However, now matter how much marketing they do, everyone still seems to come on the same day. Which simply means the resort is not doing a great job at demand planning and revenue management.

    I think we’ve done a good job covering disparate pass prices. Passes that cause people to ski midweek would certainly help. Passes that black out on powder days would help. Passes with more blackouts would help. More expensive passes would help.


    However, I also believe the resorts that have overcrowding issues need to help disperse crowds across the mountain more efficiently.

    The number one thing that would help on crowded days (besides limiting the number of guests) would be installing real time lift line information at the top and bottom of every lift. This type of signage is inexpensive and fairly effective (look at Disney). For the signs to function effectively, the queue data must be updated constantly so that the information is actually helpful to the customers. If, skiers used the sign information as they ski even close to how well queue signs are used by customers for decision making across other industries (about 50% usage) to choose their next lift, the resort’s lift facilities will be used more efficiently. Other industries that have done this have seen close to a 40% decrease in the number of customers that have to wait in line for more than 10 minutes.

    It would also certainly help to increase the number of ski patrollers so that terrain can open more quickly after a storm.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    While not available at every resort, ikon issued an app that allows for this. I have used it successfully at Mammoth to steer away from crowds. On a big mountain with lots of lifts to choose from, it makes a lot of sense. A place like Alta, probably not so much.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #317
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by nickbokhoven View Post
    While not available at every resort, ikon issued an app that allows for this. I have used it successfully at Mammoth to steer away from crowds. On a big mountain with lots of lifts to choose from, it makes a lot of sense. A place like Alta, probably not so much.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    At snowbird, when tram is 4+ boats deep, I frequently wonder how bad gadzoom is and how bad little cloud is, or how bad mineral basin is - primarily because I can use those lifts to access cirque/baldy ... but without knowing their wait time I feel kinda screwed


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  18. #318
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Idaho
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    8,371
    Quote Originally Posted by 123ski View Post
    At snowbird, when tram is 4+ boats deep, I frequently wonder how bad gadzoom is and how bad little cloud is, or how bad mineral basin is - primarily because I can use those lifts to access cirque/baldy ... but without knowing their wait time I feel kinda screwed


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Why not ski over to check them out?

  19. #319
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    truckee
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    12,192
    Quote Originally Posted by 123ski View Post
    Passes that cause people to ski midweek would certainly help. Passes that black out on powder days would help. Passes with more blackouts would help. More expensive passes would help. It would also certainly help to increase the number of ski patrollers so that terrain can open more quickly after a storm.
    Most people don't ski midweek because they're working, in case you hadn't noticed.
    Blackouts on powder days?--you're insane
    Increased pass prices--so only the rich can ski?
    As far as more patrollers--Squaw has 55 last I heard and still can't open everything first thing after a storm. Plus, if you hire enough patrollers to somehow open faster after a storm, what are those extra patrollers supposed to do the rest of the time? Patrollers have to make rent too. (One thing you can do is install more Gazexes--they seemed to have helped Alpine Meadows open faster, Squaw not so much. Although the people who live near Alpine are upset about the noise.)

  20. #320
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    A LSD Steakhouse somewhere in the Wasatch
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    11,264
    123posts experts in resort jeans
    And doesn't git it
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -
    ski on in eternal peace

  21. #321
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    163
    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Probably true. Seems unnecessarily pessimistic though.
    Have you seen the news lately?!! These are people who live to make money. They cant be this stupid and still function in the world. The only position that brings their actions into any kind of human focus is the fact that they are making more money than anybody in the history of the world and that is a big Jones to get over... especially if you are getting filthy rich off of it. Why change when you probably can't stop the problem any way( since the problem is you). Besides, money is god's way of showing favor for good deeds. After all, we will all be happy and get "education" in the camps.

    I don't see that statement as pessimistic, it is prescient.

  22. #322
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    77
    If you waited in a 12 boat wait line at snowbird you are an idiot.
    When was that? 4th of july?
    Where did the line stretch too?

  23. #323
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Big in Japan
    Posts
    39,936
    Well, after all this bickering , I found this heartwarming.

    http://arapahoebasin.blogspot.com/20...-lift.html?m=1

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  24. #324
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    13,283
    Alan is and always has been a class act.
    Ooof!

  25. #325
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    704
    I said fall line and not Exposition. And as far as bitching about the sun goes, i would argue it doesn’t corn up evenly! Nit picking on a ten outta ten resort. I miss it daily even though I get 90 days a year elsewhere now.
    Quote Originally Posted by TG View Post
    fixed it for you

    JHMR's dirty little secret

    in bounds you're lucky if you get just a few degrees N of E
    true north facing = granite canyon

    Tower 3 = NE
    Cody = NE
    Alta Chutes = NE
    Corbett's = NE
    and that's the very best of it

    Bowl = pure South
    Headwall = SE
    Hobacks = SE
    Lower Faces = SE

    Any time you think you're skiing North Facing, it's probably ESE

    now we've passed January, get ready for sun fucked snow.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	sun fucked.jpg 
Views:	145 
Size:	297.3 KB 
ID:	315666

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