Katana 108 - the resurrerection

[Bandit Man]

Sold an older pair of skis that got me half way there... so fuck it, I bought skis in July.



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See, even with no snow on the ground, you are still able to make smart choices!


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[Shorty_J]

See, even with no snow on the ground, you are still able to make smart choices!


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Lol... well my wife doesn't know yet so we will see.

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[Shorty_J]

Wife says the new skis look badass... so I guess she's OK with it.

Quick comparisons with the blaze 106:
-As expected the shape is almost exactly the same.
-The length is nearly identical also... the 179 blaze measure almost exactly 179cm and the 177 katana 108 measures almost 178cm.
-There is definitely more camber in the katana 108, but once decambered the rocker profiles are very close... a little more rocker in in blaze 106.
-The katana 108 is definitely stiffer, and that is more noticeable in the tips, but the tails seem not much stiffer than the blaze 106, to my subjective hand flex. They don't feel planky or overly stiff at all to me. I recognize this may be different in the larger sizes.

I feel pretty confident I can handle these and I can't wait to see how they feel compared to the blaze!


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[One (+) Sentence]

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Wow, those Blaze’s have an old school mount point for sure. Like, Schuspitze old school.

[Shorty_J]

Wow, those Blaze’s have an old school mount point for sure. Like, Schuspitze old school.

I think the angle of the photo exaggerates it some, but my mount is at +2cm!

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[kc_7777]

I think the angle of the photo exaggerates it some, but my mount is at +2cm!
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I remember measuring the Blazes in the shop last fall and the three marks were at -10, -11 and -12cm I think. F’ing crazy in my mind. -12cm??? At least the Katanas have marks at -9, -10 and -11cm. Haha. But I guess Volkl knows what they are doing. And enough people like em on the line.

Interested in what Shorty says about the Katanas next season.

[gaijin]

You don’t need a long tail when it’s powerful with minimal rocker.

A longer tail, that is usually softer with more rocker, while moving the center of the side-cut forward in order to keep the ski capable of carving and being able to release the tail, results in a weak tail with wheelie-machine attributes.

I really want to try a Billy Goat for Japan but can’t get passed my stereotype that I just don’t need that much noodle behind me.

The renegade has a fairly center mount point but it’s also reverse camber. Not tail rocker.

The M102 releases just fine. Can’t imagine wanting more tail behind me.

I’ve been a Volkl freak since ~’01/~’02 vertigo and then gotama. The shapes and profiles always work. But I admit I hate carbon and wish my M102 didn’t have carbon tips. Might even sell them.

[kid-kapow]

FriFlyt seem to agree with you wrt the stiffness out back on Blazes & Katana108s, whereas Mantra102 are slightly stiffer out back (makes sense) and comparable to Katana108s in the front.

I dunno, the various flex patterns makes sense for what they various skis are intended to do.

I am not sure how I feel about the relatively softer spots in the Mantra102 design - though it seems to be a design feature of all newer Völkls. I see how it makes sense to make the ski more approachable and a tad easier to bend / engage the underfoot smaller radius, but I had a few instances where it felt like one could initiate a shorter radius at higher speeds by working that segment of the ski too hard. It is more of an issue with Mantra V Werks though - I feel like that ski could have been made a bit more versatile by a stiffer front ski, whereas they now are more of a narrower soft snow specialist for me. BMT90s have a slightly more even flex at throughout the middle of the ski, something I think skis better than MVWs varying flex pattern. Still, it makes sense to have the front of the ski float a bit better - I am not just convinced it is the best way of going about it. Way better than noodly tips though - like 1000% better.

I really want to try a Billy Goat for Japan but can’t get passed my stereotype that I just don’t need that much noodle behind me.

Noodle? BGs ain't loose due to being soft, but from being stiff and floaty in the right places, nor is their mount point that far forward at -9-10.

I kinda felt Ravens to have the same characteristics in deep, fresh snow - loose due to being stiffer and straight.

BGs are not for you if you expect the tails to be very supportive of skiing where you drive the shit out of your tips. BGs cater better to a more nimble stance where you flick the tails out / pivot them to change direction or dump speed. That is not to say that you can't drive the tips, you can, but if you "overdrive" the front of the ski the tails will wash out.

So if you are wanting a wider ski that you can ski like Mantra102/Katana108s then BGs ain't it. I would think that the same type of skier would love both BGs and Renegades, though having not skied the latter that is just pure speculation.

The M102 releases just fine. Can’t imagine wanting more tail behind me.

Agreed on the former, though I think a slightly more forward mount point together with a bit more tails would have made them a bit more balanced when in the air. Though, for their main use - hauling ass, their current design is hard to fault. M102s is a great design imho.

[Shorty_J]

I remember measuring the Blazes in the shop last fall and the three marks were at -10, -11 and -12cm I think. F’ing crazy in my mind. -12cm??? At least the Katanas have marks at -9, -10 and -11cm. Haha. But I guess Volkl knows what they are doing. And enough people like em on the line.
I so want to own the Katanas but I’m too set in my ways with my mounts at -5 to -7cm. Oh well.

Interested in what Shorty says about the Katanas next season.

Keep in mind that those mount point numbers are relatively to the total ski length and not relative to the sidecut.

I have not checked this yet on the k108 but on the blaze there is much more taper in the tips than in the tails. When I measure the ball of foot location relative to the sidecut with my mount at +2cm on the blaze (which is something like -9 or 10cm from true center), it is relatively similar to my older salomon rocker 2 122s which are mounted at -5cm from true center. There's so much more taper in the salomon skis that in about the same position in the sidecut with that mount.

I think the skis you are on now have more taper in the back as well... you're on enforcers mostly, right?

At +2 on the blaze I can ski them with a neutral stance and they don't need to be driven all the time.

I'm going to put demos on the k108 as well and probably start them at +1 but I expect to end up at +2 again.

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[gaijin]

Dude, kid-kapow, awesome data points! Thanks for all of that.

I would think that the same type of skier would love both BGs and Renegades, though having not skied the latter that is just pure speculation.

Yeah, six years on the Owl Rens has had me eyeing the BGs for a while now. Looking for that drifter with suspension.

Cheers!

[kc_7777]

I value maneuverability in tight spots usually more than super stability. Especially in steep and sketchy no-fall terrain at Blackcomb. If I lived only on groomers, I would still own the 2020 M102 I sold. It was great as a fast, stable ski on groomers.

But knowing me I’ll probably do something stupid next year and buy Katanas one day. Probably late at night, after a couple of beers, and just after I read one of banditmans K108 reviews and I mysteriously find myself on Corbett’s website.

[Shorty_J]

Had my first couple of hours on the k108 (177cm) today.

Lake louise, groomers, small moguls, chop, tracked powder and 3 or 4 actual powder turns were had.

First I did a top to bottom on the blaze 106 (mounted at +2cm) as my baseline run... which was my first run of the season but I didn't feel rusty at all like I have in years past. This ski was again, immediately easy, intuitive, and surprisingly loose.

Then I switched out for the k108 with the same attack 13 demos, mounted at +1cm. This puts the mount point very similar to what I had on the blaze relative to the sidecut. And the sidecut is nearly identical on these two skis, with a similar rocker profile, but a little less rocker and a little more camber on the katana.

They engage turns nearly indentcally, and feel the almost exactly the same on long radius and short radius turns. The katana did not feel as loose but it was still easy to release the tails at will and I never had any unpredictable behaviors. I found the katana easy to handle at slow speeds and never got hung up on the tail. I even took them down some relatively tight trees (though not too steep) and small moguls and found them quite easy to manage. That might change on super steep terrain or with huge troughs in the moguls.

Then I opened them up on the same groomers I had the blaze on earlier... and holy shit are these skis quiet and composed! The blaze is fun there but the katana makes it seem like you're driving an old Cadillac... just so smooth!

Went back up and moved the bindings forward 1 click (now at +1.5cm). They felt a little more loose but still not as much as the blaze.... but close. My stance became a little more centered but turning felt similar. Larger moguls were no problem and could still push them through firm chop no problem.

Went back to +1cm and noticed that while I wasn't driving the tips, that spot made my stance feel best with resting my shins on the boot tongues a little more, while still being a mostly neutral stance. In that position I found the suspension a little better and speed felt a little more comfortable. Again, this mount point is nearly identical to my +2 on the blaze, but I think this ski wants a bit more forward pressure due to having more camber... but I was by no means skiing aggressively, or way over the tips.

I'm super impressed with the suspension on these skis and I actually think it made the skiing easier on my legs despite the fact that I was letting them run pretty fast in chop, and it being my first (half day). My legs feel great and that surprises me... I wasn't just taking it easy for day 1 like I have in years past.

The 3 or 4 turns in 6-8" of medium density medium angle pow were effortless and predictable. I think in the very light pow we can get here in mid winter they might not do so well but that why I have other skis over 110mm (gasp)!

I'm pretty stoked on these and I'm pretty sure I can handle them. I think they do almost everything the blaze does, but smoother... except maybe if I have to get into some jump turns, and I'd probably give a tiny nod to the blaze in powder with slightly more rocker and a longer tapered tip.

Might do another A/B comparison with the blaze if I have a chance before I switch the blaze to touring duty. And I want to try going back a little more on the mount point next time, just to see.

Summary:

[Bandit Man]

Had my first couple of hours on the k108 (177cm) today.

Then I opened them up on the same groomers I had the blaze on earlier... and holy shit are these skis quiet and composed! The blaze is fun there but the katana makes it seem like you're driving an old Cadillac... just so smooth!

I'm super impressed with the suspension on these skis and I actually think it made the skiing easier on my legs despite the fact that I was letting them run pretty fast in chop, and it being my first (half day). My legs feel great and that surprises me... I wasn't just taking it easy for day 1 like I have in years past.

I'm pretty stoked on these and I'm pretty sure I can handle them. I think they do almost everything the blaze does, but smoother... except maybe if I have to get into some jump turns, and I'd probably give a tiny nod to the blaze in powder with slightly more rocker and a longer tapered tip.

Might do another A/B comparison with the blaze if I have a chance before I switch the blaze to touring duty. And I want to try going back a little more on the mount point next time, just to see.

Summary:

[Shorty_J]

^^^ I believed you, I just wasn't sure about myself.

Lots of good comments on this thread but it was your reviews that pushed me over the top to buy it... so thanks!

[kc_7777]

Shorty_J….you liked them at +1cm from the rearmost/back (-11cm) Katana line?

I gotta not read this thread…

[BC.]

It’s totally based on user preference, and great input above^^^^having skied both old/new Katanas….+1 seems to be the/a sweet spot….

[Shorty_J]

Shorty_J….you liked them at +1cm from the rearmost/back (-11cm) Katana line?

I gotta not read this thread…

Yup. And I still liked them at +1.5 too, but leaning towards +1 after my first couple of hours. I'll need to measure if it's actually -11cm on the 177 size or not... not positive right now. The rec line is definitely ~1cm forward of the blaze rec line.

Going to continue to play around with the mount and these demos are staying on, so I may continually move the mount point to suit the conditions of the day... a la ESS VAR binding days of old.

[Bandit Man]

Being someone who likes to pressure the shovel, I have only skied my 184 K108’s on the line. However, I bought some 191’s with demo bindings at the end of the season and am encouraged by the reports of a larger sweet spot. I could see going forward of the line on the longer length.


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[kc_7777]

My theory has always been to buy good skis at good prices....

I’m probably dumb enough to buy some K108s one day. Haha

Well today is that day....2022 quiver is complete. I meant to buy last year's K108 for ~$660CDN....but Corbetts Black Friday had the mean looking all black 2022 K108s for just $150 more than the 2021s.... at $807CDN (plus no PST tax shipping to BC saves me another 7%).....so I decided to get the 2022s.

I guess looks do matter. +$147 well spent as this year's 2022 K108 colour looks so good...deadly and stealth. I have some new black Armada STH 16s to go on these. Which will be good as this is the ski that I will likely be on when being chased by bad guys and being shot at like James Bond.

Got the 177cm. Plan is to not f them up and not mount forward. I will go on either the rear rec line or maybe +1 cm (middle line). But no further forward. ShortyJ -- I know should get demo binders but I'm not that smart.

Some drool pics.....and Happy Thanksgiving to all you 'mericans!

[gaijin]

That is going to look beautiful. Probably one of Volkl’s best graphics since the OG Gotama.

If you want a demo binding, I’ll swap you for a Baron Demo. Then you can side-country this demon, too, and have a metal kick plate on your toe piece. Less stealthy but far more useful.


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[robnow]

If only our local rep had the 191 to demo. I grabbed the 184 for first day out but it ended up being a pow kind of day so skied fatties instead. You guys have me wanting to really try the ski out!!!

[Shorty_J]

2nd day update:

15cm of new snow, I'd say medium density for the rockies... not blower. Soft chop, old firm moguls underneath.

They ski powder well, not just ok, and still truck through soft chop and hold a strong edge on the groomers... it's kind of amazing actually!

Moved the bindings back to about +0.5cm forward of the rear line and had one instance of tip grab in some slabbier powder but I'm thinking that's more user error as I wasn't expecting slab.

Moved them back to +1cm and still good in powder. Got a run down paradise bowl before it got moguls on it and I don't think I've ever skied it that fast! Still very maneuverable and no issues releasing the tails in pow or variable and no punishment for back seat driving.

I found moguls totally doable today as well but sometimes the tails were catching a bit in deeper troughs. So I moved them back to +0.5cm for a few more runs. Easier to manage in bumps and still truck. The only thing I noticed here is that while they still engage and carve the same on the long radius of the ski, to engage the shorter sidecut underfoot was less intuitive and required more forward pressure on the boots instead of just rolling them over farther. I suspect that this part of the sidecut is quite short and therefore more susceptible to mount point. I did the same test on my blaze 106 and found the same thing... 1 click too far back and they need to be driven more to get the short radius turn... 1 click forward and you can ski a more neutral stance for short radius turns.

So right now I'm torn between +0.5 and +1cm... plusses and minuses.

But I'm blown away with their versatility so far!

[Bandit Man]

2nd day update:

15cm of new snow, I'd say medium density for the rockies... not blower. Soft chop, old firm moguls underneath.

They ski powder well, not just ok, and still truck through soft chop and hold a strong edge on the groomers... it's kind of amazing actually!

Moved the bindings back to about +0.5cm forward of the rear line and had one instance of tip grab in some slabbier powder but I'm thinking that's more user error as I wasn't expecting slab.

Moved them back to +1cm and still good in powder. Got a run down paradise bowl before it got moguls on it and I don't think I've ever skied it that fast! Still very maneuverable and no issues releasing the tails in pow or variable and no punishment for back seat driving.

I found moguls totally doable today as well but sometimes the tails were catching a bit in deeper troughs. So I moved them back to +0.5cm for a few more runs. Easier to manage in bumps and still truck. The only thing I noticed here is that while they still engage and carve the same on the long radius of the ski, to engage the shorter sidecut underfoot was less intuitive and required more forward pressure on the boots instead of just rolling them over farther. I suspect that this part of the sidecut is quite short and therefore more susceptible to mount point. I did the same test on my blaze 106 and found the same thing... 1 click too far back and they need to be driven more to get the short radius turn... 1 click forward and you can ski a more neutral stance for short radius turns.

So right now I'm torn between +0.5 and +1cm... plusses and minuses.

But I'm blown away with their versatility so far!

Glad you are enjoying them so much. As I tried to convey all last season, they are so well mannered and so easy to ski for how stable they are. Definitely my favorite ski from last season.

Did you do any detuning? I went pretty aggressive with a gummy stone to the tips and tails and they are loose but still bite like mad underfoot.

[Shorty_J]

Glad you are enjoying them so much. As I tried to convey all last season, they are so well mannered and so easy to ski for how stable they are. Definitely my favorite ski from last season.

Did you do any detuning? I went pretty aggressive with a gummy stone to the tips and tails and they are loose but still bite like mad underfoot.

The factory tune seemed to be ever so slightly detuned already from the widest point to a couple of inches in from there.

I hit that area pretty lightly with a Gummi to about 3" to accentuate that.

Perhaps I should hit the tails a little harder and keep the bindings at +1 for the best of both worlds... I prefer a slightly more neutral stance and +1 allows for that a touch better so far.

[kc_7777]

Got shipment notice from Corbett’s today. K108s are on the way.

Reading this with interest.

I’m thinking +1cm or +0.5cm. With my short bsl of 288mm….thinking +1cm.

Never had skis mounted than far back. Looking forward to it.