Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[Ted Striker]

The dick nose thing is strange to me. What's the point? All I can think is it's sort of a "I'm wearing a mask because it's required, but I'm going to wear it wrong as a fuck you" kind of thing.

IME, the fuck you crowd have been showing up at the building supply stores that pros use (not HD and Lowes), and they make a point of letting everyone know their opinions. One of the local places has hired bouncers.

[muted]

@ muted Al Jazeera predicting (as of last night) additional 300,000 homeless in Beirut. Good times.

Jaw is dropped.

The fastfreddy window installers in Beruit are going to make a fortune there.

[DJSapp]

What I don't understand is how mail-in voting makes it impossible for republicans to win. If they think its because people don't want them in office and won't vote for them then isn't the problem them and not the method of voting?

The issue is the working poor just can't/won't take the time to vote on election day because they're working (yes, I know there are laws, but when you're working two or three jobs they don't have to coordinate time off for voting) or just flat ass exhausted. Give them a vote that they can mail in for free and weeks to complete it and now they're a voter. Many of them don't understand what an absentee ballot is, or that they could have had one. The working poor also have issues with housing security which means a steady mailing address becomes a barrier to voting as you need to show up at the correct polling place and give the address you had when you registered to vote. Seniors at the old folks home have had 40 years to figured this out, and they have a lot more time to vote, so they have it figured out. Mail in ballots add more 18-30 year olds to the electorate. The young and poor lean left.

This also cuts into the timeline for Drumph to pray a vaccine passes clinical trials so he can take credit for saving the country, as ballots could be mailed weeks earlier than Nov 3.

[KQ]

The dick nose thing is strange to me. What's the point? All I can think is it's sort of a "I'm wearing a mask because it's required, but I'm going to wear it wrong as a fuck you" kind of thing.

I kinda feel like it's a fit thing.

Mask is too big and people a) don't know how to adjust it b) don't care to adjust it because they think it's just the way it is given their head shape and/or c) they don't have the time/energy/money to shop around for one that fits.

Maybe we need PSA on TV about how to acheive a proper mask fit.

[Mofro261]

That "free" test is probably one of these point of care tests. I believe these tests themselves are actually cheap. The expense is the doctor visit required.
Quidel Corporation for the Sofia 2 SARS Antigen FIA
BD (Becton Dickinson) Veritor System

My understanding is that the cheap, fast self-tests also exist, but none are approved (yet).
Orasure is one developer

If the point-of-care tests are cheap enough to run daily, a school or workplace could use them. Detecting infected people a day or two before they become symptomatic and sending them to isolate may slow spread enough to end the pandemic. Would certainly be more effective than the current process of wait for symptoms, and several more days to schedule, get tested, and return results.

No, in concept they should be but those tests are not "cheap". They both run on proprietary instruments from each company which limits through put unless the doc's office has a machine to process them. They both require a swab, collection tube, buffer reagents, in one case freeze-dried, along with the detection reagents ( antibodies against NP protein) stabilized on a strip. They provide a positive and negative control to run along with the test.

I haven't looked at price point for either Quidel or BD test but since many of the serology lateral flow assays with very similar tech were coming in around $50/test I don't see this being a $1-2 assay without serious gov't subsidy.

[Ted Striker]

Another observation from the box store: why is your whole fucking family there?

I lost count of how many fat sloths were waddling around with several sprogs in tow. Like both parents and two or three kids - or worse - mom, kids, and grandma.

Maybe, just maybe, during a highly contagious airborne respiratory virus pandemic, one might want to limit the numbers of bodies inside enclosed spaces with limited aisle width, no one way movement directives, and choke points at the exits.

I thought Home Depot was the place dads went to get away from their families.

[abraham]

IME, the fuck you crowd have been showing up at the building supply stores that pros use (not HD and Lowes), and they make a point of letting everyone know their opinions. One of the local places has hired bouncers.

Weird, I went to Dunn lumber instead of HD and everyone was very good about masks and giving space. Seemed like the attitude was, this is what we need to do to get work done, so do it and get on with things.

[KQ]

The issue is the working poor just can't/won't take the time to vote on election day because they're working (yes, I know there are laws, but when you're working two or three jobs they don't have to coordinate time off for voting) or just flat ass exhausted. Give them a vote that they can mail in for free and weeks to complete it and now they're a voter. Many of them don't understand what an absentee ballot is, or that they could have had one. The working poor also have issues with housing security which means a steady mailing address becomes a barrier to voting as you need to show up at the correct polling place and give the address you had when you registered to vote. Seniors at the old folks home have had 40 years to figured this out, and they have a lot more time to vote, so they have it figured out. Mail in ballots add more 18-30 year olds to the electorate. The young and poor lean left.

Really ought to be a national holiday.

as ballots could be mailed weeks earlier than Nov 3.

Washington state mails out ballots on October 16th. Counting the days.......... 72 untl I get to check that box

[concretejungle]

The dick nose thing is strange to me. What's the point? All I can think is it's sort of a "I'm wearing a mask because it's required, but I'm going to wear it wrong as a fuck you" kind of thing.

That. Also, it's clear these people are mouth breathers so uncovering their noses does nothing.

[dunfree]

Really ought to be a national holiday

If it ends up a national holiday the more motivated/better liked by their employers working poor will be working to get time and a half.

[bodywhomper]

Another observation from the box store: why is your whole fucking family there?

I lost count of how many fat sloths were waddling around with several sprogs in tow. Like both parents and two or three kids - or worse - mom, kids, and grandma.

Maybe, just maybe, during a highly contagious airborne respiratory virus pandemic, one might want to limit the numbers of bodies inside enclosed spaces with limited aisle width, no one way movement directives, and choke points at the exits.

I thought Home Depot was the place dads went to get away from their families.

I wonder this too when I’m at stores, seeing the whole family, sometimes three generations wondering the aisles together. Truly baffling. But it seems to be another symptom of implicatory denial.

Of course, the single parent or primary caregiver parent in the store is in a different situation.

Via a broad local FB group, I started to directly and openly question, engage, and lay into the primary “re-open everything w/o any mitigation” organizers, Eric Christen, and one of his loud supporters. I then got busy, ignored the thread, and let others do their thing. I approached with the, “this is a really shitty situation, but here’s why we need to have these measures in place, and here’s the broad science supporting the reasons (and refuting what you’re proposing).” I shared some recent articles from Science, the NAS school re-opening recommendations, etc. if I didn’t have a day job, 3 kids, and a bunch of other plates spinning, I would have stayed more engaged in the discussion.

It’s really not helpful that the State does not seem to be acknowledging openly that 6-foot distancing in indoor spaces w/o masks (eg restaurants) is not adequate. They closed the stuff down, but their public messaging for the reasons has poor.

This dude though, Eric Christen, is a piece of shit. My area is a Tea Party hub and one of the original organizers is from (and still lives) in the area. Christen is cut from the same cloth, and I believe he moved to my area because of it. He’s very googleable for his actions in the East Bay, CA state politics, politics in OR, and politics in Colorado. He’s a principal organizer of the re-open California campaign and demonstrations in Sacramento. He’s also a promoter that the whole thing is a “hoax” and turns it into political theatre. What’s interesting, his 3 kids are very active in the HS athletics program, and their HS lost the boys BB head coach to COVID in April. I’d love to see him in person and take the time to publicly call him out, but at the same time, there’s documentation that he’s had to be forcibly removed by LE from public government agency meetings.... if he’s truly cut from the same cloth as that tea party guy, he’ll be carrying a concealed glock everywhere he goes.

[Jax]

I kinda feel like it's a fit thing.

Mask is too big and people a) don't know how to adjust it b) don't care to adjust it because they think it's just the way it is given their head shape and/or c) they don't have the time/energy/money to shop around for one that fits.

Maybe we need PSA on TV about how to acheive a proper mask fit.

The majority of people are just dumb as fuck. IMO.

[KQ]

Dr. in Roseburg OR calls out Govenor Brown on Covid hoax:

Open letter to Kate Brown

Discontinue the following measures: mask requirements for the general public, enforced quarantine measures, contact tracing, and social distancing enforcement. These measures are for the containment of a virus in the beginning; not in the middle of a pandemic. This virus was widespread in the U.S. at the time of its discovery in Washington state. The infection fatality rate of COVID is low. There are fewer susceptible in our population to this virus than previously realized. New studies have shown evidence of cross T-cell immunity from other prior “common cold” non COVID coronavirus exposures. There is now clear evidence that antibody testing significantly underestimates the prevalence of SARS-Cov-2 in the population. Contact tracing and case counts are very resource intensive and do not add actionable value at this point in the pandemic. Our lives would look exactly like they do now if we did contact tracing for influenza – chaotic.

[Ted Striker]

Weird, I went to Dunn lumber instead of HD and everyone was very good about masks and giving space. Seemed like the attitude was, this is what we need to do to get work done, so do it and get on with things.

You know B'ham right? I'm talking about Hardware Sales. And maybe it's more that they fall squarely into the center of the pros, home owners, angry old white men, trump bumper stickers, rainbow flags venn diagram. It's too bad because it's my happy place, and the staff is fantastic. Even if someone thinks it's all bullshit, disrespecting the staff is way the fuck out of line.

Builders and Millworks seem to be lower key, but they're both mainly outdoors.

[PNWbrit]

A quick google shows the same Doc was bitching about state's policy in letters to the paper back in April.

[jono]

Here's a recent linsey marr post about the ineffectiveness of face shields, which apparently replicates earlier results from an NIOSH study (linked in her post): https://twitter.com/linseymarr/statu...25920459165702

"Ineffectiveness?" As with masks it's important to separate between HC workers (who need to stay in a room with a patient) and the general public (who mostly need to block coughs and sneezes, especially if they can then walk away). For HC workers a shield has to be an additional layer, but while is not as ideal for the general public as a good mask, it is preferable in some circumstances (lip reading) and can also be worn along with a mask--there is no shortage of face shields. As with masks, there are better and worse, but with face shields the difference is kind of obvious: seal the top and more coverage (sides and bottom) is better.

Also, as they acknowledge, their 1-30 minute samples are taken in a sealed chamber, which makes them look a bit more dire, since many rooms in a HC setting should be getting significant filteration or air exchange over a period that long.

The text from the article is a lot more complete than the graphs in the tweet:

Our results showed that 0.9% of the initial burst of aerosol from a cough can be inhaled by a worker 46 cm (18 inches) from the patient. During testing of an influenza-laden cough aerosol with a volume median diameter (VMD) of 8.5 μm, wearing a face shield reduced the inhalational exposure of the worker by 96% in the period immediately after a cough. The face shield also reduced the surface contamination of a respirator by 97%. When a smaller cough aerosol was used (VMD = 3.4 μm), the face shield was less effective, blocking only 68% of the cough and 76% of the surface contamination. In the period from 1 to 30 minutes after a cough, during which the aerosol had dispersed throughout the room and larger particles had settled, the face shield reduced aerosol inhalation by only 23%. Increasing the distance between the patient and worker to 183 cm (72 inches) reduced the exposure to influenza that occurred immediately after a cough by 92%. Our results show that health care workers can inhale infectious airborne particles while treating a coughing patient. Face shields can substantially reduce the short-term exposure of health care workers to large infectious aerosol particles, but smaller particles can remain airborne longer and flow around the face shield more easily to be inhaled. Thus, face shields provide a useful adjunct to respiratory protection for workers caring for patients with respiratory infections. However, they cannot be used as a substitute for respiratory protection when it is needed.

Unfortunately the study makes no mention of the actual face shields being tested, so things like material, how much side coverage was offered and whether the top was sealed are unknown. That's important for the discussion of 1-30 minute exposure because a free flow of air around and/or up (or possibly down in this experiment, since they didn't mention heating the mannequin's air space as would be the case with a real human) behind the shield changes the mixing rate and thus the concentration of virus in the air immediately adjacent to the mask where they collected samples.

It's good that they're looking at this stuff, but it's also a classic case of "further study is needed," which is a shame in the present environment.

[KQ]

A quick google shows the same Doc was bitching about state's policy in letters to the paper back in April.

Well he's doubling down now and if you look at the hospital site it appears they are too.

Oh well.... as stated yesterday I don't care anymore and I really hate that from time to time when friends tell me this is all a hoax or I read things like that doctor's letter I have evil thoughts.


Add:

Are we crazy? Is this virus really a nothing burger? Reading that letter to Gov. Brown saying face masks and social distancing aren't necessary and we all just need to get back to work makes my head spin.

Sometimes I just don't know anymore and increasingly I feel as if retreating from the world is the thing to do because apparently there is no truth anymore.

[jono]

Well he's doubling down now and if you look at the hospital site it appears they are too.

Oh well.... as stated yesterday I don't care anymore and I really hate that from time to time when friends tell me this is all a hoax or I read things like that doctor's letter I have evil thoughts.


Add:

Are we crazy? Is this virus really a nothing burger? Reading that letter to Gov. Brown saying face masks and social distancing aren't necessary and we all just need to get back to work makes my head spin.

Sometimes I just don't know anymore and increasingly I feel as if retreating from the world is the thing to do because apparently there is no truth anymore.

We're not crazy and the best way to know that he is is that he's advocating the removal of masks. It's one thing to say that contact tracing is hopeless--certainly we've screwed this up bad enough for that argument to hold water. But transmission is still going to be reduced by masks, SD and basic hygiene. If he's denying that he's just delusional.

[old goat]

Excellent piece in the New Yorker about the poultry industry and how it and the administration is using the pretense of the pandemic to gut worker protections and help the industry deunionize the union shops. The industry scare talk about meat and poultry shortage was a scam--meat and poultry exports were increasing at the time that the scare talk was going on.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...t-the-pandemic

The monoclonal antibody thing sounds promising, although the value of convalescent plasma hasn't yet been proven by a trial.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/05/m...gtype=Homepage
The article discusses the controversy between treating physicians vs research--whether to use novel treatments outside trials or enroll patients in trial.

[The AD]

What I don't understand is how mail-in voting makes it impossible for republicans to win. If they think its because people don't want them in office and won't vote for them then isn't the problem them and not the method of voting?

Well, voter suppression is almost a campaign platform for the party at this point...

[jono]

Well, voter suppression is almost a campaign platform for the party at this point...

The only area they have a polling advantage these days is the "enthusiasm gap." So the harder it is to vote the more their exuberance tilts the in their favor. Funny to see Republicans trying to get out the absentee votes now, though: they've gone so hard on this thing that now the fear is that with more people staying home some of their supporters won't vote at all. Can't even get the propaganda right, apparently.

[DJSapp]

If it ends up a national holiday the more motivated/better liked by their employers working poor will be working to get time and a half.

Time and a half? US Dept. of Labor does not require OT pay on holidays if you work less than 40 hours for that week. US labor law doesn't give a shit about holidays. How many in retail or service actually get time and a half on holidays? Few to none.

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-over...dules-and-pay/

[Adolf Allerbush]

The only area they have a polling advantage these days is the "enthusiasm gap." So the harder it is to vote the more their exuberance tilts the in their favor. Funny to see Republicans trying to get out the absentee votes now, though: they've gone so hard on this thing that now the fear is that with more people staying home some of their supporters won't vote at all. Can't even get the propaganda right, apparently.

It's a weird tactic. In an election cycle that's going to require people to risk their health to vote in person, and their base is older generally and more susceptible to the pandemic, you would think they'd want to encourage vote by mail. the Texas approach is very strange...if you're 65 or older and have a health condition then you can vote by mail...I guess if you're 64 and have health issues you're fucked.

[jono]

It's a weird tactic. In an election cycle that's going to require people to risk their health to vote in person, and their base is older generally and more susceptible to the pandemic, you would think they'd want to encourage vote by mail. the Texas approach is very strange...if you're 65 or older and have a health condition then you can vote by mail...I guess if you're 64 and have health issues you're fucked.

That's just a straight up pander. Only thing better than making it hard to vote is making it hard for younger people to vote. They'd go by race if they could.

[bodywhomper]

It's good that they're looking at this stuff, but it's also a classic case of "further study is needed," which is a shame in the present environment.

thanks for diving deeper into what i posted. i did not dive too deeply. i've found that linsey marr will often provide science and interpretation of the science for lay-person use and understanding. however, sometimes her interpretation has some bias. for instance, a few months ago, she posted about how schools need to re-open, but it seemed that her reasoning was because he elementary-aged child was getting on her nerves.

in the field of working with children with special needs (wife's occupation), many schools and professional organizations are wishy-washy about whether a face shield is adequate w/o a mask. my wife is observing (via FB groups) that many therapists are only wearing face shield. these are adults that can potentially be super spreaders w/in a school because they migrate from class to class, sometimes working with aides, teachers, parents, the child needing therapy, and other students in the class (i.e., typically developing peers) that are part of a group session. These interactions can be dictated by a legally binding IEP that was developed over a year ago. and, of course, some therapy, like speech therapy, is very difficult to do with a child while either are wearing masks. The use of a face shield in these circumstances w/o a mask seems like a very bad idea.