Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[jono]

All it says to me is that the fear is present in very different social groups, and rather than feel that fear, the weak minded are puffing up in futile threat gesturing (we're not afraid, you can't hold us down!). They want to fight, but given the virus can't be seen, they want to demonstrate their fear denial to a surrogate.

Hammer meet nail. You can tell who is scared by who brings up fear in the first place. Some subcultures are reverting to the social structures of posturing pre-teens, taunting each other into games of chicken. Next up: triple dog dares!

[Benny Profane]

Michael Pollan talks about the food supply chain.

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/202...s-food-supply/

[Benny Profane]

Good summary of outdoor vs indoor transmission risks.

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2...nfectious-dose

And this:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...store-unlikely

[LeeLau]

Here in Germany we have a weird coalition of far right, far left, conspiracy freaks and hippies demonstrating for freedom from (what exactly? corona? Wearing a mask?A representative democracy?) whatever they think. And Europe is trying to coordinate the reopening anyway.

Same in Canada. Same in Malaysia and Singapore. Anti science cuts across ethnic, socioeconomic, political.

[DougW]

Good summary of outdoor vs indoor transmission risks.

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2...nfectious-dose

And this:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...store-unlikely

good links

Question , if one is exposed to less than the required infectious dose, yes that amount is now unknown, does that do anything? Probably doesn't produce antibodies in any numbers, but would it speed up the bodies response to the virus the next time exposed?

[Benny Profane]

Nobody knows, I'm pretty sure. We don't even know if infection brings immunity yet.

[frorider]

The Spanish flu pandemic of 1918 left some of its deepest scars on the military, where it tore through densely packed barracks and ships, accounting for as much as 80 percent of all service casualties during World War I, according to some historians. Memories of influenza decimating entire divisions haunted Franklin D. Roosevelt as war clouds gathered during his second term. His team resolved to plan for another wartime outbreak of something like the Spanish flu: Along with military offices dedicated to the design and production of tanks and planes, they established a federal biomedical R&D infrastructure to invent needed medicines and vaccines.


From a vaccine history article: https://newrepublic.com/article/1575...-patent-system

I hadn’t heard about the Canadian vaccine for Ebola that wasn’t even put into production—instead it just served to enhance the asset portfolio for an impending takeover.

[DougW]

More directionally rather than specific to this virus. Lets say normally for a virus being exposed to less than infectious dose does .. what?

We don't even know if infection brings immunity yet. - I'm not so sure that is so up in air. Ok some % will have no antibodies, a % will have low antibodies, ok effectiveness questionable, and a larger % will have what seem to be sufficient antibodies. Maybe a bit more definite than don't know.

[jono]

good links

Question , if one is exposed to less than the required infectious dose, yes that amount is now unknown, does that do anything? Probably doesn't produce antibodies in any numbers, but would it speed up the bodies response to the virus the next time exposed?

Might be better to ask what the actual definition of an "infectious dose" is in the first place. I found this article helpful:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7090536/

In particular:

Investigations into the MID of human viruses have typically involved the experimental administration of the virus and the use of dose response data to determine the viral concentration required to infect 50% of the population (Human ID50; HID50) or concentrations required to infect lesser percentages of the populations such as HID10 and HID1. Since determining the HID10 and HID1 requires a large number of test subjects to achieve statistically significant values, making it a time-consuming and expensive process, most human MIDs have been expressed as HID50. Since the HID50 represents the viral concentration required to infect 50% of the population, it follows that this value is always greater than the minimum dose required to cause infection (Ward et al. 1984a).

Which of course begs the question, if we're talked about the MID for corona, which one? HID50? HID1? People talk as if it's HID1, but that seems to imply HID50 is more likely, which would be qualitatively different in the context of this discussion.

Also seems to imply that maybe some of the people with minimal symptoms started from small exposure. (Or got lucky and one of the exposing viruses landed in a lymph node quickly relative to its friends finding an ACE-2? /non-medical speculation.)

[ron johnson]

Ron, Ron, buddy, .listen.
We get the digifisticuffs, you rebel with every right wing cause.

People here have been really pretty nice re-re-reexplaning to you some pretty obvious stuff. About climate change and now about contagion.

But why is it always this shit shower of random bitchy attitude and then a flush of complete ignorance about the fundamental precepts.

(interlude, cause this rocks: :


And yet, out your come, roaring away with all the cheap, didactic, whiny, know it all sophist kneejerking.

Constantly, not convincing anyone of anything and for sure never contributing any ski stoke or even remote joy, fiendishness or excitement about whatever it is that turns you on.

So either you're just stupid, psychotically addicted to abuse, distain and bitter lurching vicissitudes or maybe this is the thing that gets you happy.

You go girl.

Okay so you are just dodging the question again. You posted that link in response to me, which had little to do with what you quoted from me, so I ask for clarification on what your point is for the second time, and you dodge the question again. But people have been pretty nice re-explaining obvious stuff to me?? How funny. You got any examples? Everything I have posted here is supported by "the science."

I rebel with every right wing cause? Are there are only two right wing causes - climate change and ending lockdowns?

I know more about the subject of climate change than anyone on here, and there is only ONE other poster that has demonstrated ANY semblance of knowledge on the subject, but I get vilified by people totally clueless on the topic just because I don't buy into their climate catastrophe narrative. Why would I want to contribute stoke to a community that has been so unwelcoming to me?

[hawkgt]

fuck off ron.

edit: you're no mag that is for sure.

[Deebased]

Stop quoting and responding to Ron Jeremy.
You can’t win this battle.

Have you ever hung out with Ron J?

He's half good dude, half psoriasis

[MultiVerse]

It would be helpful if the subset of folk(s) here would stop the "lockdown" rhetoric. There are very few instances of crude shotgun blast lockdowns in America. It's a minority of people persisting with the same politically motivated terminology.

What we have is individual and geographic variations of social distancing, personal hygiene, self isolation, contact tracing, household quarantine, shelter the elderly, and masks along with varying limitations on crowd sizes and certain types of business.

If people want to frame this as a binary choice — between endless lockdown or reckless reopening — then it needs to be understood for what it is: the failure of our political leaders to create a safer, middle path.


The fact that there are optimistic trends in America is because the "Darwinian natural selection" crowd are in the minority. Most Americans are doing what they can to protect their families and communities, and that's what's extraordinary.

[highangle]

ron jonson Dunning-Kruger

rj D-K

Rj D-k

rJdk

rjdk dk dk dk k

johnson Dunningkruger ron

ron K ron K ron Dunning


.


Sorry guys, was trying to solo in that little box without going "da Do ron ron ron, da Do ron ron"...

[Core Shot]

Have you ever hung out with Ron J?

He's half good douche, half polyass

Hmmm

[Lone Star]

I wish I was smart enough to come up with a conspiracy theory about Q. Maybe that Q is actually Hillary.

I found this article enlightening. The thesis is that susceptibility to conspiracy nonsense isn't a left vs right thing. Which is why we have that curious example of hippy dippy leftists making the same arguments as the skinhead militias.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...coming/610567/

[Buster Highmen]

Chris Hitchens hit the nail on the head when he partitioned the world into Theists and Nontheists. That is where the discord and divisions lie.

[old goat]

More directionally rather than specific to this virus. Lets say normally for a virus being exposed to less than infectious dose does .. what?

We don't even know if infection brings immunity yet. - I'm not so sure that is so up in air. Ok some % will have no antibodies, a % will have low antibodies, ok effectiveness questionable, and a larger % will have what seem to be sufficient antibodies. Maybe a bit more definite than don't know.

"Don't know" is often the best answer to a question.

However, when my residents would ask me a question I didn't know the answer to, rather than admitting it, I would tell them to research the question and report back to me with the answer. That way we would all learn something. And they would stop asking me questions.

So, go do some research on immunology and virology and report back to us in, oh I'd say about 8 years--that should give you time to get your double PhD.

[MultiVerse]

Speaking of immunity, recent research suggests there's crossreactive immunity from other coronaviruses which might explain why there's so many mild or asymptomatic cases, and also suggests vaccines that target the CD4+ T cell responses could work:

There has been a huge amount of uncertainty about immunity to SARS2—both in the context of COVID19 disease pathogenesis and in the context of how to develop a good vaccine.

In the study, 100% of COVID-19 cases made antibodies. 100% of COVID-19 cases made CD4 T cells. 70% of COVID-19 cases made measurable CD8 T cells. We believe these findings are good news, and consistent with normal antiviral immunity.

CD4+ T cell responses to spike, the main target of most vaccine efforts, were robust and correlated with the magnitude of the anti-SARS-CoV-2 IgG and IgA titers. Again, good news.

Additionally, any potential for crossreactive immunity from other coronaviruses has been predicted by epidemiologists to have significant implications for the pandemic going forwards. We detected SARS-CoV-2-reactive CD4+ T cells in ~50% of unexposed individuals.

Detecting SARS2-reactive T cells in ~50% of unexposed people suggests cross-reactive T cell recognition between circulating ‘common cold’ coronaviruses and SARS-CoV-2. This might influence susceptibility to COVID-19 disease.

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...674(20)30610-3

https://rattibha.com/thread/1261052353773363200?lang=en

[DougW]

Might be better to ask what the actual definition of an "infectious dose" is in the first place. I found this article helpful:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7090536/

In particular:



Which of course begs the question, if we're talked about the MID for corona, which one? HID50? HID1? People talk as if it's HID1, but that seems to imply HID50 is more likely, which would be qualitatively different in the context of this discussion.

Also seems to imply that maybe some of the people with minimal symptoms started from small exposure. (Or got lucky and one of the exposing viruses landed in a lymph node quickly relative to its friends finding an ACE-2? /non-medical speculation.)

I can see that its not an absolute number as there is randomness in where it lands, the human that it lands on etc. So all that number is going to show is compared to other viruses how much more or less on a relative basis .

[XXX-er]

early in my Career I learned to never ask a question you didnt know the answer to

I am always impressed with a person who sez they don't know

[DougW]

I thought the don't know was already covered. Trying to refind art that had results of study in China. Out of less than 200 , something around 10 had no antibodies, about 20% had pretty low antibodies and the rest had a good population. So the last group had something. Now how long they will last ok? that is unknown.

So actual rates are unknown, is it 100% immunity ? no there is good preliminary data that not 100%, Is it 0% ? no there is good data that not 0% immunity . So actual rate is somewhere between >0 and < 100%, with prelim data around 70%. That is concerning as antibody tests unless quantitative rather yes/no would tell people they are clear when no they could catch and carry again.

[jono]

Chris Hitchens was partly right when he partitioned the world into Theists and Nontheists. That is one place where some discord and divisions lie.

FIFY. There are plenty of theists and athiests with no light between them on this subject. Claiming otherwise says that you are more interested in a different subject and would like to oversimplify those with whom you disagree on that subject. That's an age-old (and tired) method of disguising a simple ad hom. You're better than that. Imagining that some larger debate between any two groups is more important than bringing people together on these subjects right now is dumb. Claiming that any personal characteristic makes a whole group incapable of understanding and acting correctly in this moment only serves to push such people toward bad decisions.

Now is not the time to secure for future generations the conclusive proof of the deplorability of republicans or theists or pale-skinned thicc white women with names that rhyme with shmaren.

[KQ]

Suppose this has always been in the back of my mind but it really hit home this morning -

We are no further today than we were when this first started with regard to operating businesses etc than we were when this first started.

With no therapy or vaccine nothing has changed and all these people rushing out without masks or social distancing is going to start the ball rolling all over again but then maybe that's what needs to happen. I just don't know anymore.

/depressing thoughts

[Buster Highmen]

FIFY. There are plenty of theists and athiests with no light between them on this subject. Claiming otherwise says that you are more interested in a different subject and would like to oversimplify those with whom you disagree on that subject. That's an age-old (and tired) method of disguising a simple ad hom. You're better than that. Imagining that some larger debate between any two groups is more important than bringing people together on these subjects right now is dumb. Claiming that any personal characteristic makes a whole group incapable of understanding and acting correctly in this moment only serves to push such people toward bad decisions.

Now is not the time to secure for future generations the conclusive proof of the deplorability of republicans or theists or pale-skinned thicc white women with names that rhyme with shmaren.

Respectfully disagree with your F.

It is the fundamental rift, in part because most people don't really understand what it means to think in terms of science theories.