Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[Trashcan]

I think he means a nebulizer?

Bingo, Thanks I knew I had the wrong term

[bennymac]

Bingo, Thanks I knew I had the wrong term

No worries.

[KQ]

so circling back to gatherings where no one is sick then everyone is sick what are you all doing about T-day?

I'm conflicted. T-day here is me, my mother who lives in an independent retirement home (she's 89) and another relative who works from home (he's 68). What should we do? Should we hold it as normal? Should I cook dinner then deliver it and we all eat in our respective homes? Skip it all together?

[uglymoney]

We aren't doing a Thanksgiving. My parents live 10 minutes from me so we see them all the time but always outside and distanced and or masked. Unless it is a 60ish degree day I can't see a safe way to do it and nice sunny warm days are pretty random here on Nov 25th. Parents are 75 and 76. Wife's parents are a little younger but not outdoor people so anything outside is a non starter for them on T day.

We'll try to do a walk or something with them that weekend. Maybe exchange some food.

Meanwhile the indoor weddings and kids birthday parties lit up my FB feed this weekend. No masks. Wtf people.

[Bunion 2020]

That was from a series in the Post:

Here is another one.

@ KQ, I would do dinner as usual and try and distance as much as is feasible.

‘It’s like Trump said: The cure has been worse than the disease.’
Mike Fratantuono, manager of Sunset Restaurant in Glen Burnie, Md., on the death of a family business
By Eli Saslow
September 26, 2020
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I grew up inside this restaurant, and now my wife’s helping out in the dining room and my daughter’s working at the hostess stand. This is a family place — four generations and counting. I know every inch of pipe and wire we have running through here. I’ve been the plumber, the busboy, the handyman, the butcher, the bartender, the prep cook, the manager. I’ve done every job there is in this restaurant, and now I’m the one who has to shut us down.


It kills me. We were supposed to be getting ready to celebrate our 60th anniversary this year, and instead we’re packing up and closing at the end of this month. I’ll find another job, but it’s more than that. It’s home. These walls are like a family photo album. I try not to get too sentimental about it, because it won’t change a damn thing, but sometimes the stress hits me and my heart starts going like crazy. I get frustrated. It makes me angry. How does this whole situation make any sense? I don’t know a single person that’s gotten covid, and I know that’s probably lucky, but right now I can tell you about at least a dozen businesses going under and a few hundred people going broke.

I know this virus is real, okay? It’s real and it’s awful. I’m not disputing any of that. But our national hysteria is worse. We allowed the virus to take over our economy, our small businesses, our schools, our social lives, our whole quality of life. We surrendered, and now everything’s infected.

I like to believe this restaurant is resilient. We tried to outlast it. My father worked here five days a week until he died at age 82, so that’s in our DNA. When the governor first shut us down in March, I got together with my brother and my cousin, and we agreed to think of this as an opportunity. The restaurant was doing pretty good at that point. We had a little money to spend. We said: “Let’s reinvest back in the business like it’s supposed to be done.” We remodeled the entire bar. We put in new bathrooms and new draft lines. We gave a tour to a few of our loyal customers, and they said: “Wow. When this place opens up, you’re going to fill it every day. You’ll be back bigger than ever.”

At first the state was only allowing us do carryout. So, okay. We’ve got five dining rooms, 85 employees, and 13,000 square feet of space, and now you want us to operate like your regular old burger shack? How many people do you know who are willing to spend $40 on a lukewarm steak that’s traveled halfway across town? That’s not our typical business. We’re old school. We don’t have frozen hot wings that we heat up and toss in a cardboard box in five minutes. We buy the chicken fresh, cut off the fat, pound it out and bread it. Your wings take 25 minutes while you’re enjoying a conversation and a cocktail or two. But that’s the old world, right? What choice did we have? We redid our carryout menu to cut the prices down and teamed up with DoorDash and Grubhub. We created themed menus for Mother’s Day and Easter. We delivered charity meals out to the hospitals and opened up a crab trailer out front so we could sell by the bushel. We were spending $800 a week on carryout containers, and there’s no real profit in any of it. You lose out on booze. You don’t get the same tips. We kept hanging on through March, April and May, but our revenue was down more than 80 percent. We had to lay off 75 people. That’s 75 families dealing with unemployment and financial hardships, and not because a virus made any of them sick.

When the state opened up for outdoor dining, I ran out to every Costco in the area and bought any picnic table I could find. We got 20 for $150 a piece. We roped off the parking lot and put out buckets of cold beer. We tried to make it look nice, but it’s summer in Baltimore, and it’s 90-some degrees outside and you’re selling cream of crab soup to people who are sweating on the asphalt. Nobody really came. Why would they come? We stood out there for nine hours each day and we waited.

We got more creative. We kept on trying. We opened up at 50 percent capacity and had live music, themed dinners, mystery nights and a meal with a psychic. We reinvented this restaurant a dozen times, but none of it worked.

And what kind of support did we get? More rules. More restrictions. More regulations, mandates and curfews. We have to close at 10 p.m., because I guess maybe covid comes out at 10:01 — except apparently not at the casino down the road, because they have political leverage, and they get to stay open as long as they want. You can sit at our bar and have a drink, but you can’t get up and mingle, because that’s considered a health violation, so now I’m trying to serve you and police you at the same time. “Thanks for coming! We really need your business. Now put on your mask or sit the hell back down!” I have to buy disinfectants, individual ketchups, paper menus, and personal salt-and-pepper shakers or else I might get fined. My employees have to wear their masks all the time, even when they’re alone in an office, but meanwhile we have a group of 40 people in the dining room with no masks on, and that’s deemed safe because they’re drinking water? None of it makes any sense.

We had a customer come in the other day, and she couldn’t get seated because we had a few other tables, and we’d hit our 50 percent capacity in the one dining room she likes. I had to ask her to wait. I’d rather sit her down and take her money. I hate this rule, but now I have to enforce it. But she could see all the empty tables, and she didn’t understand it. She got mad and decided to call 911 and tell them we were over capacity. Two armed police officers came through here. The whole foyer was empty. There was nobody at the bar. I’ve got a max fire rating on the wall for 323 people, and they couldn’t count up to 100. I told them: “I dream about being over capacity, but I doubt it will happen again.”

It’s like Trump said: The cure has been worse than the disease. People spent too much time at home watching the news all day, drinking in this hysteria until they were spraying down their groceries and afraid to leave home. It became another anti-Trump thing in the press. The impeachment didn’t work, the killer bees didn’t work, so let’s blow covid out of proportion and see if it hurts him. But it’s the rest of us that got hurt. It was day after day of failure. It was a slow and painful death.

We went to see our accountant at the end of the summer. He looked over the numbers but he didn’t say much, and that’s not like him. I said: “What would you do?” He said the way things were going, we’d have nothing left to lose within a few months.

We made the decision right then. There wasn’t much to discuss.

Our last day is September 30th, and then we’re done.

The coronavirus that causes COVID-19 can live for up to 28 days on surfaces such as mobile phone screens and ATMs

Shit, I thought it was airborne spread? What concentration on a surface is a hazard? Even if that figure is 1/2 as long it is frightening.

[The SnowShow]

Here’s a question: even if one were to contract CV from touching an ATM screen and immediately wiping one’s nose or touching one’s face, would your viral load be low enough that you may get a very mild case?

[east or bust]

Do the Aussies routinely do these types of studies 8 months late, or....

If it were true how the fuck would that not be an already known characteristic of this virus and widely disseminated amongst the public?


"Transmission of coronavirus occurs much more commonly through respiratory droplets than through objects and surfaces, like doorknobs, countertops, keyboards, toys, etc. Current evidence suggests that SARS-CoV-2 may remain viable for hours to days on surfaces made from a variety of materials."

^Straight from the cdc.gov website. So yea, I have an extremely hard time believing it's surviving on anything for 28 days, maybe in a climate controlled vacuum. Heh

[yeahman]

so circling back to gatherings where no one is sick then everyone is sick what are you all doing about T-day?

I'm conflicted. T-day here is me, my mother who lives in an independent retirement home (she's 89) and another relative who works from home (he's 68). What should we do? Should we hold it as normal? Should I cook dinner then deliver it and we all eat in our respective homes? Skip it all together?

One solution: Leave the decision up to the people who are most vulnerable. My 88-year-old dad has made it clear from the beginning that he will take any chance he gets to see his kids and his grandkids, and he will assume responsibility for his own safety and social distancing (and of course we are all very cognizant of it too). His opinion is that to see family it's worth the risk, whereas to see friends or attend other gatherings, it's not worth it.

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

Seen the propaganda ad a few times already. Fauci could always resign, and go full on scorched earth on Trump.

This is what I don't understand. It's not like Fauci is 15 years into his pension like those poor secret service agents that have to risk their health for the man baby.

Fauci and Redfield are obviously being muzzled (Birx can GF), they should go out blazing for the sake of the country.

[old goat]

so circling back to gatherings where no one is sick then everyone is sick what are you all doing about T-day?

I'm conflicted. T-day here is me, my mother who lives in an independent retirement home (she's 89) and another relative who works from home (he's 68). What should we do? Should we hold it as normal? Should I cook dinner then deliver it and we all eat in our respective homes? Skip it all together?

It sounds like you've been very careful and assuming your relative has been equally careful it seems to me that a gathering of the 3 of you is would be quite low risk, not zero. The other thing the consider is whether getting together would be more stressful than joyful. Only you can decide that.

Virus that causes COVID-19 survives up to 28 days on surfaces, Australian scientists find

The coronavirus that causes COVID-19 can live for up to 28 days on surfaces such as mobile phone screens and ATMs — much longer than previously thought — new Australian research has found.

Trevor Drew, director of the Australian Centre for Disease Preparedness, said the research team used the same amount of virus that would be found in someone who was infected.

"It's important to know how long this virus can last so we know how often we need to disinfect things and what sort of risk common surfaces pose," Professor Drew said.

He said the fact the virus lasted for so long on surfaces such as glass was important, with the results published today in Virology Journal.

"Touchscreen devices such as mobile phones, bank ATMs, supermarket self-serve checkouts and airport check-in kiosks are high-touch surfaces which may not be regularly cleaned and pose a transmission risk," Professor Drew said.

They key to the article is in Table 1 (if I try to copy it it displays unreadably, so go to the article.) Basically it says that at various temps the half life of the virus on various surfaces is hours to a couple of days. At 20C 90% is gone in about a week, at 30C about 2 days.
Then there is the issue of how much virus would be transferred from surface to hand and then to airway.

Not all surfaces are the same--if someone with symptomatic covid coughs all over an ATM there is probably some risk. I would worry more about surfaces in an office repeatedly exposed to an asymptomatic shedder over hours to days and then the healthy people are touching the same surfaces repeatedly.

[Ted Striker]

so circling back to gatherings where no one is sick then everyone is sick what are you all doing about T-day?

We're skipping it all together, except we might do what we've done in the past when we couldn't get together with family: homemade thanksgiving pizza.

Only three of my four parents are alive, and two are high risk.

[wooley12]

Your situation sounds safe to me KQ. 3 people. All have been minimizing contact. Don't sit too close for too long. Fan in the window. No kissing. Wear masks when you can. That's the protocol for us with the grand kids.

[jono]

Similar. Although I'm curious to hear how KQ gets creative with T day. Could be worth its own thread.

I've relied a couple times on the idea that one person who's outside my bubble is unlikely to be a/pre-symptomatic and shedding on the one day I see them. Our numbers were lower at the time, but the less people you see the lower your odds. (With real numbers I ask everyone to mask up if we're close together now.)

[bodywhomper]

Extended in-laws are discussing near zero risk gathering (15 peeps!) for t-day. Currently, they're devising the protocol of when we all enter (near) isolation, get tests, exclusively use curbside pickup, and the exceptions of the near isolation rules, such as doctor visits. Two of the group are known high risk if infected. Curbside pick-up shopping for t-day food sounds tricky to me.

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[KQ]

Okay.... thinking what I'll do is have a "brief dinner" meaning I'll get everything ready to serve then we can gather and eat. Normally we would spend the day together while dinner is prepared but I know the less time we spend together the better with regard to transmission. At least it will be something. I know Mom would be unhappy not having dinner.

Out of the three of us I have the most outside contact with grocery shopping, horse shoers, vets, farm help etc.

[bigdude2468]

Virus that causes COVID-19 survives up to 28 days on surfaces, Australian scientists find

The coronavirus that causes COVID-19 can live for up to 28 days on surfaces such as mobile phone screens and ATMs — much longer than previously thought — new Australian research has found.

Trevor Drew, director of the Australian Centre for Disease Preparedness, said the research team used the same amount of virus that would be found in someone who was infected.

"It's important to know how long this virus can last so we know how often we need to disinfect things and what sort of risk common surfaces pose," Professor Drew said.

He said the fact the virus lasted for so long on surfaces such as glass was important, with the results published today in Virology Journal.

"Touchscreen devices such as mobile phones, bank ATMs, supermarket self-serve checkouts and airport check-in kiosks are high-touch surfaces which may not be regularly cleaned and pose a transmission risk," Professor Drew said.

I am not doubting the Aussie study but it sure makes it difficult when there is so much disagreement about the virus, how it reacts, how effective are masks, how many people are asymptomatic, how many people have antibodies etc etc. In August here is what the Cleveland Clinic said.

Here’s how long the virus typically lasts on common surfaces, but it can change depending on sanitation efforts, sunlight and temperature:

Glass – 5 days.
Wood – 4 days.
Plastic & stainless-steel – 3 days.
Cardboard – 24 hours.
Copper surfaces – 4 hours.

[huckbucket]

... there is so much disagreement about the virus, how it reacts, how effective are masks, how many people are asymptomatic, how many people have antibodies etc etc.

To be crystal clear, there's absolutely no disagreement among legitimate scientists/clinicians on the point in bold above.

[funkendrenchman]

The only Thanksgiving dinner I would consider would be outside with only a couple people. Masks on as much possible.

[stealurface831]

Virus that causes COVID-19 survives up to 28 days on surfaces, Australian scientists find

The coronavirus that causes COVID-19 can live for up to 28 days on surfaces such as mobile phone screens and ATMs — much longer than previously thought — new Australian research has found.

Trevor Drew, director of the Australian Centre for Disease Preparedness, said the research team used the same amount of virus that would be found in someone who was infected.

"It's important to know how long this virus can last so we know how often we need to disinfect things and what sort of risk common surfaces pose," Professor Drew said.

He said the fact the virus lasted for so long on surfaces such as glass was important, with the results published today in Virology Journal.

"Touchscreen devices such as mobile phones, bank ATMs, supermarket self-serve checkouts and airport check-in kiosks are high-touch surfaces which may not be regularly cleaned and pose a transmission risk," Professor Drew said.

This is a terrifying notion.

[old goat]

Okay.... thinking what I'll do is have a "brief dinner" meaning I'll get everything ready to serve then we can gather and eat. Normally we would spend the day together while dinner is prepared but I know the less time we spend together the better with regard to transmission. At least it will be something. I know Mom would be unhappy not having dinner.

Out of the three of us I have the most outside contact with grocery shopping, horse shoers, vets, farm help etc.

But it sounds like you have been pretty diligent about wearing a mask when you are out and about, that a lot of your encounters are outdoors and relatively brief. You're not hitting the bars every night. Or are you?

[Buster Highmen]

Okay.... thinking what I'll do is have a "brief dinner" meaning I'll get everything ready to serve then we can gather and eat. Normally we would spend the day together while dinner is prepared but I know the less time we spend together the better with regard to transmission. At least it will be something. I know Mom would be unhappy not having dinner.

Out of the three of us I have the most outside contact with grocery shopping, horse shoers, vets, farm help etc.

Can you self isolate for 2 weeks beforehand,? Stock up on food and stuff, then the likelihood of being infectious is small. That and some distancing should give you peace of mind about seeing your Mom.

[Skidog]

my parents will be at my house for turkey day. with my wife and kids its 6. Normally would be a larger gathering. We have had very regular contact with them since march...

[glademaster]

The only Thanksgiving dinner I would consider would be outside with only a couple people. Masks on as much possible.

More or less this. My risk of exposure at work is high enough that I wouldn't even consider seeing my parents unless I could take two weeks off to quarantine at home beforehand, and even then it would be outside only, masked and distanced. Not worth the risk.

[frorider]

I’m pretty stoked there’s a vaccine already. And that it works even if you have Covid:

Eric Trump on Sunday touted a nonexistent “vaccine” that he claimed dramatically helped his father, President Donald Trump, recover from COVID-19 after the president “worked” hard to get it developed.

The president didn’t get a vaccine, nor has he developed one, nor is it clear he’s recovered.

In fact, doctors administered a steroid, an antiviral drug and an antibody cocktail to the president after he tested positive for COVID-19. There is no authorized COVID-19 vaccine in the U.S.

None of the facts apparently mattered to Eric Trump. “My father literally started day one creating this vaccine. He worked to push this vaccine, and now my father just took it, and you see how well he got over it,” Eric Trump gushed on ABC News’ “This Week.”

“Wait, wait,” host Jon Karl interrupted. “Can you clarify that you said your father just took a vaccine?”

[Ted Striker]

Gary Busey is a biochemist now?