Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[Ted Striker]

We must re-open the beaches!

So the great white shark has been killed?

No, but it only eats the slow swimmers!

[DougW]

^ ..

What are we going to do tuck them away in bubble wrap? If people want to argue the economy should take precedent that's one thing but don't pretend we can easily segregate people according to risk.

We do that every year during the flu season. It is being done now , some places effectively other places not so much, in long term care facilities. It is very difficult and of course the more prevalent it is in the general population the harder it is to keep the segregated safe. I am doing the grocery shopping for an older couple on our road as a way to lower their risk.

[riser4]

the take it on the chin crowd.

Pornhub.

[rod9301]

I've been expressing the theory for the past few years that modern life has made it too easy for stupid people to survive. Most of these idiots would have been kicked in the head by a mule a hundred years ago because they're too stupid to know which end is the front. Modern medicine and safety protections have allowed idiots to not only survive but thrive. They seem to be having their moment now. Like any of these dufuses who take up arms because they can't get a haircut could have taken a wagon across an unknown country, cleared land, built a cabin, and been a self sufficient pioneer. Just a bunch of poser wannabes.

How true

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

[ron johnson]

Here's something else to consider:

Those "old or the immune-compromised " are still part of society doing important work. Those "old or the immune-compromised" are part of the fabric that keeps this country running and it is not always easy to replace them with a younger model.

Honestly, people talk about those most at risk as if they are a fringe part of society and nothing more than a burden that we should be glad to be rid of like yesterday's trash.

Even if we were to agree that the 60+ crowd is doing important work in society, I don't see what your point is. Why should the 60+ crowd being unable to do their "important work" impact whether younger people should be allowed to their important work?

On it's own it's a serious matter. Doesn't need to be linked. It appears to be on the rise but thankfully there is therapy.

I think we have a different definition of serious. There are all sorts of rare diseases that kill people.

[rod9301]

It exposes the dangers of widespread reopening without a containment plan.

Case in point the Smithfield Foods meatpacking plant in South Dakota. Smithfield paid bonuses to workers for not staying home, which increased the number of workers who showed up. Then the scheme backfired when hundreds became infected and the plant was forced to shut down.


Also, people under age 60 seem less concerned about death than they do quality of life after surviving a severe illness so focusing on the lower probability event when total caseloads in the US are still rising is probably not a winning argument for the take it on the chin crowd.

I'm 70 and i worry much less about dying than about suffering long term damage which would prevent me from skiing, climbing and mountain biking.

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[bennymac]

People like to envision that the “elderly and those with chronic disease” that are at high risk from covid are all 90+year olds with dementia bed-bound in a full care home having their life extended with no actual quality of life.

But something like 45% of Americans have a chronic illness - and I’m not talking about those just over 60 or 70 years old.

And now think about the average age of government officials - whether municipal, state, or federal. Are they approaching 60? Shit just look at Trump, Biden, Pelosi, McConnell, Sanders, Pence, etc

How old are the administrators of your schools? How old are the doctors teaching at medical schools? How old are the people that are high up in the unions? All the institutional knowledge in fields like engineering and law etc.

Now tell me how do you isolate this large percentage of the population (all the over 60 plus and the 45% with chronic illness) and simultaneously open things back up to normal functioning society?

I’d like answers from the tools on here that post every week “what about Sweden!” (Without reading a word about what Sweden has actually done) and those parroting “it’s just a flu bro”

[old goat]

Here's something else to consider:

Those "old or the immune-compromised " are still part of society doing important work. Those "old or the immune-compromised" are part of the fabric that keeps this country running and it is not always easy to replace them with a younger model.

Honestly, people talk about those most at risk as if they are a fringe part of society and nothing more than a burden that we should be glad to be rid of like yesterday's trash.






On it's own it's a serious matter. Doesn't need to be linked. It appears to be on the rise but thankfully there is therapy.

At the end of a lot of the PBS news hours they do profiles of some of the victims who have died. Obviously they are cherry picking--no profiles of people who were in a nursing home with dementia unable to speak or recognize family in years--but plenty people dying who are functioning members of society and certain beloved by family and friends. They are not throwaway people.

The premise of stay at home was to give enough time for PPE to be stockpiled, ventilators manufactured, get testing ramped up, let essential private businesses and essential government services time to establish safe workplaces, and get a good start on a vaccine. The first 4 haven't happened, due to the abject failure of the federal government to mobilize the resources of the country on a war footing. The citizenry have done their part by staying home. People are becoming restless because they do not see the government and industry keeping their part of the bargain. If we are getting no closer to adequate protective gear and especially testing, what is the point in staying home?

Unless we somehow manage to get a good vaccine quickly, which is unlikely, staying home will have turned out to be in vain, because it is only prolonging the agony.

Coronagate

[ron johnson]

^ And we shouldn't assume there's an easy way of protecting high risk individuals while simultaneously allowing the virus to spread unchecked.

What are we going to do tuck them away in bubble wrap? If people want to argue the economy should take priority that's one thing but don't pretend we can easily segregate people according to risk.

How about we just do what we are doing now? Doesn't seem that hard. Almost every older person has at least one younger friend or family member that they can count on to help deliver food to them. And if not, there is certain to be members of their local community willing to help out.

[ron johnson]

People like to envision that the “elderly and those with chronic disease” that are at high risk from covid are all 90+year olds with dementia bed-bound in a full care home having their life extended with no actual quality of life.

But something like 45% of Americans have a chronic illness - and I’m not talking about those just over 60 or 70 years old.

And now think about the average age of government officials - whether municipal, state, or federal. Are they approaching 60? Shit just look at Trump, Biden, Pelosi, McConnell, Sanders, Pence, etc

How old are the administrators of your schools? How old are the doctors teaching at medical schools? How old are the people that are high up in the unions? All the institutional knowledge in fields like engineering and law etc.

Now tell me how do you isolate this large percentage of the population (all the over 60 plus and the 45% with chronic illness) and simultaneously open things back up to normal functioning society?

I’d like answers from the tools on here that post every week “what about Sweden!” (Without reading a word about what Sweden has actually done) and those parroting “it’s just a flu bro”

Obviously there is no perfect solution, but the average retirement age in the US is 62. We aren't talking about a big percentage of the population that are still working important jobs here. Much of the work in the examples you give can still be done from home.

What is your solution? Lockdown everyone for 1 year + and pray for a working vaccine?

[Deebased]

People like to envision that the “elderly and those with chronic disease” that are at high risk from covid are all 90+year olds with dementia bed-bound in a full care home having their life extended with no actual quality of life.

But something like 45% of Americans have a chronic illness - and I’m not talking about those just over 60 or 70 years old.

And now think about the average age of government officials - whether municipal, state, or federal. Are they approaching 60? Shit just look at Trump, Biden, Pelosi, McConnell, Sanders, Pence, etc

How old are the administrators of your schools? How old are the doctors teaching at medical schools? How old are the people that are high up in the unions? All the institutional knowledge in fields like engineering and law etc.

Now tell me how do you isolate this large percentage of the population (all the over 60 plus and the 45% with chronic illness) and simultaneously open things back up to normal functioning society?

I’d like answers from the tools on here that post every week “what about Sweden!” (Without reading a word about what Sweden has actually done) and those parroting “it’s just a flu bro”

There's no way to protect everyone and we must keep everything shut down. Imagining any human has the decency, self-respect, capability to self-quarantine for the needed time period is foolhardy.

[KQ]

Excellent point. Experience and wisdom gained cannot be expressed as mere numbers on a daily death count.

@Ron, Dude, don't bother with me, I am not engaging you. Believe it or not at the very essence this is still a skiing site and skiing is what brought most of us here in the 1st place. Until you have established some bona-fides you and your worthless opinions can fuck right off.

Seriously - next time any of you go out and do what limited shopping you can take a look at those who are working. The people checking you out at HD, the person driving public transportation and if we were in non-pandemic times, people taking your ticket to an event, school bus drivers, mail carriers etc. etc.

It's like we think were a county full of beautiful young people getting things done.

[MultiVerse]

How about we just do what we are doing now? Doesn't seem that hard. Almost every older person has at least one younger friend or family member that they can count on to help deliver food to them. And if not, there is certain to be members of their local community willing to help out.

Is what we're doing now working? Didn't somebody here post a bunch of charts and then argue it's mostly elderly and health compromised who are affected so we should end whatever it is we're doing?

The point being nearly every country, even Sweden, explicitly stated their plan was to protect the vulnerable but it didn't work unless they also slowed the spread in the population at large. It's one thing to hand wave and say all it takes is outside help, it's another thing for it to actually work.


It's also worth mentioning that a lot of older people, irrespective of retirement age, work to make ends meet. Older folks also vote in large numbers...

[bennymac]

Obviously there is no perfect solution, but the average retirement age in the US is 62. We aren't talking about a big percentage of the population that are still working important jobs here. Much of the work in the examples you give can still be done from home.

What is your solution? Lockdown everyone for 1 year + and pray for a working vaccine?

I don’t have a solution - but it’s not my job nor my area of expertise to come up with one. I just know, even though I’m not an expert, that’s it’s not so simple as the gun toting protestors and people crying out for the nail salons to open claim it to be.

I can tell that you know it’s not that simple either so I’m not lumping you in with them.

But if we want to imagine a solution then the ideas you are suggesting could definitely be a part of it. But let’s not gloss over the 45% of Americans with a chronic disease - that number is not limited to the retired members of society. With obesity rates being what they are in North America I bet most people are diagnosed with these chronic illnesses in their 40s.

I don’t hear people shouting “full 100% lockdown until a vaccine! Stay in your homes!” Nobody appears to be suggesting this.

Lots of people seem to be shouting “protect the oldsters in homes but otherwise FREEdom to party anywhere and everywhere”.

The solution is gonna be somewhere in the middle, it’s gonna take experts to design it (and not overweight mouth breathers with bazookas wearing custom XXL tactical clothing), it’s gonna need to evolve with time (tightening restrictions in geographic areas when needed) and its got to be accepted and appreciated that we have gotten to the point of being able to enact a plan like this *because* of experts like Dr Fauci and not because a bunch of idiots stormed their government offices demanding freedom from tyranny (aka I’m a survivalist but I still need haircuts and chicken wings every 4 weeks or I’ll fall apart)

[The SnowShow]

Freedom is wearing a mask. It opens up more things.

[wooley12]

^ And we shouldn't assume there's an easy way of protecting high risk individuals while simultaneously allowing the virus to spread unchecked.

What are we going to do tuck them away in bubble wrap? If people want to argue the economy should take priority that's one thing but don't pretend we can easily segregate people according to risk.

Wear a fucking mask when you are out. Problem solved.

[KQ]

Freedom is wearing a mask. It opens up more things.

I like this - would make a good bumper-sticker or sign for the window of an establishment.

[ron johnson]

Is what we're doing now working? Didn't somebody here post a bunch of charts and then argue it's mostly elderly and health compromised who are effected so we should end whatever it is we're doing?

The point being nearly every country, even Sweden, explicitly stated their plan was to protect the vulnerable but it didn't work unless they also slowed the spread in the population at large. It's one thing to hand wave and say all it takes is outside help, it's another thing for it to actually work.

I remember hearing about how we were doing this to flatten the curve, which has been flattened, so I guess it worked? Lockdown was never about eradication

[seano732]

Karen Exhibit #2. People are starting to fucking lose it:

https://twitter.com/jharper818/statu...379951618?s=21

[KQ]

Karen Exhibit #2. People are starting to fucking lose it:

https://twitter.com/jharper818/statu...379951618?s=21

I'm sure this has nothing to do with the virus or stay at home orders this woman obviously has a mental illness. Did you hear what she was saying?

[ron johnson]

I don’t have a solution - but it’s not my job nor my area of expertise to come up with one. I just know, even though I’m not an expert, that’s it’s not so simple as the gun toting protestors and people crying out for the nail salons to open claim it to be.

I can tell that you know it’s not that simple either so I’m not lumping you in with them.

But if we want to imagine a solution then the ideas you are suggesting could definitely be a part of it. But let’s not gloss over the 45% of Americans with a chronic disease - that number is not limited to the retired members of society. With obesity rates being what they are in North America I bet most people are diagnosed with these chronic illnesses in their 40s.

I don’t hear people shouting “full 100% lockdown until a vaccine! Stay in your homes!” Nobody appears to be suggesting this.

Lots of people seem to be shouting “protect the oldsters in homes but otherwise FREEdom to party anywhere and everywhere”.

The solution is gonna be somewhere in the middle, it’s gonna take experts to design it (and not overweight mouth breathers with bazookas wearing custom XXL tactical clothing), it’s gonna need to evolve with time (tightening restrictions in geographic areas when needed) and its got to be accepted and appreciated that we have gotten to the point of being able to enact a plan like this *because* of experts like Dr Fauci and not because a bunch of idiots stormed their government offices demanding freedom from tyranny (aka I’m a survivalist but I still need haircuts and chicken wings every 4 weeks or I’ll fall apart)

I'm not glossing over the 45% of Americans with chronic disease. If you are under 60 and vulnerable to the virus then you are free to stay home as well. I posted these previously, but Netherlands, Spain, and France all have higher deaths per capita than the US, so we should expect the US numbers to be lower than these, and they all show the virus to be "just the flu" if you are under ~60.

[The SnowShow]

Karen Exhibit #2. People are starting to fucking lose it:

https://twitter.com/jharper818/statu...379951618?s=21

Wow. I don’t think I’ve ever been that angry about anything.

Is this current? No masks to be seen?

[bennymac]

I'm not glossing over the 45% of Americans with chronic disease. If you are under 60 and vulnerable to the virus then you are free to stay home as well. I posted these previously, but Netherlands, Spain, and France all have higher deaths per capita than the US, so we should expect the US numbers to be lower than these, and they all show the virus to be "just the flu" if you are under ~60.

For the 100th time - death is not the only metric that needs to be considered. Ask yourself why a healthy 35 year old nurse or doctor is wearing a space suit to see a covid patient but wouldn’t if it was the regular flu.

Any answer that involves prior immunity to the flu - or any mention of “we have a flu vaccine! (but it doesn’t work well)” - does not, as people on here seem to hope, support the “covid is just like the flu if you’re under 60!” mantra - it actually runs counter to your argument that we can treat these in similar fashions.

[bodywhomper]

Our county with no few confirmed cases in a few weeks has reduced restrictions on businesses, and restaurants are actively recruiting outsiders to come and visit to“dine-in” (ie indoors). It’s a beautiful day. Lots of people walking around town. I saw plenty of kids that I know that have not physically seen each other walking around together ( no masks). I went to the hippy food coop. The coop is doing a lot of try to keep its employees and customers safe, but less than half of the customers were wearing masks and maybe a quarter of the customers were children with their parents.

at least it’s a warm and sunny day... lots of young hippy youth dressed appropriately... so there’s that.

[KQ]

For the 100th time - death is not the only metric that needs to be considered. Ask yourself why a healthy 35 year old nurse or doctor is wearing a space suit to see a covid patient but wouldn’t if it was the regular flu.

Any answer that involves prior immunity to the flu - or any mention of “we have a flu vaccine! (but it doesn’t work well)” - does not, as people on here seem to hope, support the “covid is just like the flu if you’re under 60!” mantra - it actually runs counter to your argument that we can treat these in similar fashions.

Add to that the a lot of younger people who get it and recover aren't just better in a few days/week like the flu. So many are reporting weakness that lasts for weeks.