Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[char_]

My father has been a teacher in a public school system for 31 years, with 8 years in a private school before that. He's taught middle and high schoolers his entire career. He's an athletic coach Fall, Winter, and Spring as well. He is past the necessary years to collect retirement from the state system and could theoretically retire. He also has over 270 accrued sick days, which he will be unable to cash-out or convert upon retirement. He lives and works in a traditionally red state in the middle of fly-over country, but teaches in a uniquely diverse student population given the geography. He is a parent to two children (grown) and a grandparent to three (all elementary age).

I had a long talk with him about the upcoming school year. He is quite torn. He loves teaching. One of those teachers you just gravitated towards in school because they made real connections with their students, cared about them, and made learning fun. He and a few of his colleagues with 30+ years in the school have been trying to figure out what to do with the upcoming school year. All of them are in similar situations...older (60+), enough vacation days to use for 2+ entire school years, and a true passion for teaching. Some of them are even "retired", but teach a handful of classes per day. He doesn't want to leave his students out to dry with a permanent sub or retire with such short notice leaving his principal/superintendents with a big vacancy, but he is also at risk. He has asthma, is recovering from back surgery, and is over 60 years old. He is taking very serious precautions to keep from contracting COVID.

The teacher's "union" in his state is basically non-existent and has no real collective bargaining power, so they are left with no real say in how/when the school districts will open and are left to follow whatever order is passed down from the legislature/governor/etc. He is open to teaching online and took to it quickly for an old man in the spring, but like many have said, in-person teaching is so much more effective. Not to mention somewhere between 20-30% of his students don't have daily access to a computer or even the internet.

The high school he teaches in has ~1,000 students and they have 5 periods per day. +teachers, administrators, other staff. Tell me how that many people, especially 14-18-year-olds, are supposed to navigate through an 8 hr day indoors and not spread COVID around? Then, say you have 6 or 7 teachers are out sick with COVID/quarantining because of an exposure...who is willingly stepping into that environment to sub? Where will the funds for extra precautions/cleaning sanitation come from? In an already poor school district? Is my father expected to suit up and tough it out because...that's what teachers do? That's what they have always done? He has sacrificed a lot for his students throughout the years, but contracting COVID? Some might say "just retire...that easy", but there are many teachers who are not in such a position and are still fearful of contracting/spreading this virus to/from their loved ones.

I don't have any answers and I don't have children. I'm just looking to continue the conversation.

Historic, once in a life time opportunity for teachers to get the recognition, pay and support they deserve. They hold the keys to the economy reopening.

He should retire and spend his time organizing to help his kids and peers have a safe school environment.

[funkendrenchman]

It's clear that school in person is a bad idea this fall (and probably the spring) for everyone. Infection rates are going up, and schools open in about 45 days. A full shutdown tomorrow won't be enough to get rates down to acceptable. Childcare places in Utah has had 16 (whoops another reported today, it's 17) outbreaks since June 1st, I'm sure there will be hundreds of outbreaks in schools if they are open. Then they will close, then open, then close....

I don't really see a debate needed on what's going to happen. As always, hope I'm wrong. College kids are wasting money and time if this clears up with a vaccine or better treatment next year. other kids are just gonna go at it online. It sucks but it won't be forever.

A real shutdown is the only solution. Kids could be back in September. But it will never happen. Of course this is also assuming we get testing and tracing in place. So, yep no chance.

A vaccine sounds great, but at this point, it’s just hopes and dreams.

[old goat]

Catching Covid twice?


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...-herd-immunity

No point in worrying about it because if it is more than a rare occurrence the human race is doomed and there is nothing we can do about it. The good news is that all those smug countries lording it over us will catch up eventually.

[KenJongIll]

Just got back from a week in the Florida panhandle. Good news...apparently no pandemic down there.

Bad news, I’m probably going to die.

[KQ]

It's clear that school in person is a bad idea this fall (and probably the spring) for everyone. Infection rates are going up, and schools open in about 45 days. A full shutdown tomorrow won't be enough to get rates down to acceptable. Childcare places in Utah has had 16 (whoops another reported today, it's 17) outbreaks since June 1st, I'm sure there will be hundreds of outbreaks in schools if they are open. Then they will close, then open, then close....

I don't really see a debate needed on what's going to happen. As always, hope I'm wrong. College kids are wasting money and time if this clears up with a vaccine or better treatment next year. other kids are just gonna go at it online. It sucks but it won't be forever.

[westoxified]

it now feels like the sprint to the finish. from disney world: https://mobile.twitter.com/unrooolie...29931417505792

[Bunion 2020]

Wait, not sure what you're saying.
I'm in France and there are police no go zones.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

How do you know? Why should I believe you? Can anyone else here vouch for you not being a troll or a nut?

I ask that because of this.

IMPACT: The “no-go zone” is an anti-Muslim conspiracy theory claiming there are areas in Europe and the U.S. with dense Muslim populations that are governed by Sharia law and where police and non-residents are barred from entry. Although it has been debunked by European police officials and news organizations, the idea of the “no-go zone” continues to circulate and is often used to justify anti-immigration and anti-Muslim policies and rhetoric.

The idea of the “no-go zone” first appeared in the early 2000s. In 2002, American journalist David Ignatius wrote that North African suburbs in Paris “become no-go zones at night.” Daniel Pipes, founder of the Middle East Forum, further popularized the term in 2006, using the phrase “no-go zone” to refer to the 751 “sensitive urban zones” that are targeted by the French government for urban renewal.

https://bridge.georgetown.edu/resear...piracy-theory/

[Bunion 2020]

RE: Masks.

Your mask feels uncomfortable? Get over it. As a surgeon, I know how vital they are.

By John Clarke
July 12, 2020 at 6:00 a.m. MDT
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Please Note

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Today, my wife returned from a visit with a friend. “She won’t wear a mask. She said it’s too uncomfortable.”

Had I been there, I would have said, as I now do when I hear people complaining about the discomforts of a mask, “Sorry, you’ll get no sympathy from me.”

As a surgeon, I spent much of my life behind a mask. Yes, it could be uncomfortable, especially during hay fever season, when I would excuse myself at the end of a three-hour operation to discreetly remove my snot-filled mask and wipe my face clean.

Yes, you learn by trial and error how to pinch the wire across the bridge of your nose so that your breath doesn’t shoot out the top of the mask and fog your glasses. You wear a mask because, in the operating room, contamination is a no-no. You wear a mask because if you don’t, the most vulnerable person in the room — the patient — might get an infection because of you.

Recently, I was the patient. I underwent a simple hernia repair under local anesthetic. Being the patient, I didn’t have to wear a mask. Being a surgeon, I felt more awkward being in an operating room without a mask than being there without my pants. I asked for one, and the understanding nurse anesthetist got me one.

While members of the operating team, the physicians and scrub nurses, do not have to maintain social distance, they do have to follow agreed-upon rules limiting their movements to avoid inadvertent contamination: hands in front of you at all times, above your waist and lower than your shoulders; no exposing your back to the front of another member of the team, which results in a front-to-front, roll back-to-back, front-to-front pas de deux if two team members have to change places in mid-operation.

Although both the operating team and the operating tables are covered with sterile drapes that extend toward the floor, only the waist-high tops are considered sterile. Should equipment be found dangling over the edge, it will be removed and replaced. You do it because, in the operating room, contamination is a no-no. You do it so that the patient will not inadvertently get infected.

If someone sees someone in the operating room unconsciously break protocol, they will call it out and it will get fixed so that there is no question about contamination. No one in the room wants to risk the patient getting infected.

If your child is in the operating room, you want the surgeons, anesthesia providers, nurses and technicians to wear their masks — masks that cover their noses — and follow the rules. Those in the operating room want to as well. They want to because the constraints are inconsequential to them compared to the risks of contamination to the patient.

They wear masks and follow the rules not for themselves, but for others. You are glad they do. When you see them after the operation, you say, “Thank you.”

John Clarke is an emeritus professor of surgery at Drexel University at Philadelphia and clinical director emeritus of the Pennsylvania Patient Safety Authority.

Little bit of preachin to the choir.

[Benny Profane]

Just got back from a week in the Florida panhandle. Good news...apparently no pandemic down there.

Bad news, I’m probably going to die.

No, but, your parents will die.

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

Wait, not sure what you're saying.
I'm in France and there are police no go zones.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

Do you know how many French people I've talked to? Not people from France, people who live all over France.

It's horse shit and you're full of shit.

[Benny Profane]

So much for hot and humid killing this thing.

"Coronavirus update: Florida shatters single-day infection record with 15,300 new cases
By Derek Hawkins, Felicia Sonmez, Laura Meckler and Marisa Iati
July 12 at 4:52 PM ET"

WAPO

[KenJongIll]

No, but, your parents will die.

They might...but not because of me. I havent seen them in person but once in the last 10 years.

[KenJongIll]

So much for hot and humid killing this thing.

"Coronavirus update: Florida shatters single-day infection record with 15,300 new cases
By Derek Hawkins, Felicia Sonmez, Laura Meckler and Marisa Iati
July 12 at 4:52 PM ET"

WAPO

I saw a “theory” that COVID might thrive in cool, dry air conditioned spaces, thus much more of that in the southern /SW tier of the country where I can attest, it’s hot as hell...
That, and the only people in FL wearing masks were over 40 and not from there.

Ed: saw this. https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020...preading-covid

[Skidog]

Sorry, not trying to insinuate anything negative...just giving perspective...and maybe I should take my advice and only do so when asked....but here goes again...

We're going to home school....for safety and then to also reduce the number of kids at school so the parents with no choice have a slightly easier go of it. Also figure less kids will be safer for the teachers.

Hopefully a vaccine is ready after a quarter or two of school and enough parents will do it so we can return to some normalcy. I'd be nervous if I was a teacher.

I still don't get how a "magic" vaccine, that can be developed in record time compared to "normal vaccine protocol", is something you're just ready to inject yourself with?

I no antivaxxer. My kids are vaccinated, as am I an wife, etc. Wife and myself have never in our lives had flu shots, kids get them yearly. Those are "proven" safe, after long trails and testing.

I get that if we have a "base" like influenza, we can adjust it for variations. As far as I understand there is no "base" for covid 19. This is 100% from "scratch" vaccine. Rushing something like this could be polio, thalidomide, etc. I'm skeptical at best.

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[Tri-Ungulate]

Which falls faster, a pound of apples or a pound of lead?

Bread. Apples. Very small rocks. Cider. Grape gravy. Cherries. Mud. Churches. Lead. A Duck.

[powdrhound]

They might...but not because of me. I havent seen them in person but once in the last 10 years.

That makes me sad.

[Benny Profane]

Well, mine are dead. That's sadder.

[Rideski]

[old goat]

RE: Masks.



Little bit of preachin to the choir.

Why do you think most OR's are kept really cold, too cold for the patient with the open chest or abdomen. (But not my OR.)
And if you want to know how a mask feels when you're running around frantically, ask a circulating nurse, not a surgeon.

One tip about masks, make sure you throw them well out of the way when trying to catch a pop foul. Very embarrassing to step in it and fall down.

[KenJongIll]

Why do you think most OR's are kept really cold, too cold for the patient with the open chest or abdomen. (But not my OR.)
And if you want to know how a mask feels when you're running around frantically, ask a circulating nurse, not a surgeon.

One tip about masks, make sure you throw them well out of the way when trying to catch a pop foul. Very embarrassing to step in it and fall down.

Ok Doc....let’s be truthful.

The OR is kept cold AF cause you guys scrubbed in get hot AF. Amiright? (I probably need to go back and read the post you were responding to)...

As for wearing a mask..I’ve been doing it for 20 years now. You get used to it, but it’s not great. When CV19 first hit, and we( I’m industry not hospital employee) had to wear N95 into all procedures, all I had was an RN95..that thing was torture. I believe it’s made to also filter out oily particles. I’ve got a proper N95 now, and while not at all comfortable, it’s doable. Now most patients have cleared testing and we don’t have to wear them, save an emergent case.

From the beginning, I saw multiple surgeons forgo wearing an N95 during a case..despite the patients unknown COVID status.

[old goat]

I still don't get how a "magic" vaccine, that can be developed in record time compared to "normal vaccine protocol", is something you're just ready to inject yourself with?

I no antivaxxer. My kids are vaccinated, as am I an wife, etc. Wife and myself have never in our lives had flu shots, kids get them yearly. Those are "proven" safe, after long trails and testing.

I get that if we have a "base" like influenza, we can adjust it for variations. As far as I understand there is no "base" for covid 19. This is 100% from "scratch" vaccine. Rushing something like this could be polio, thalidomide, etc. I'm skeptical at best.

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I'm no expert on vaccines, but I think that significant complications will come up pretty quickly in the phase 1 and 2 trials. Rarer complications might not show up until phase 3, but even if there are some serious complications the magnitude of the problem justifies the risk IMO. I expect that people at highest risk for the disease either due to occupation or age and medical risk factors will be the most willing to take the vaccine and that may be enough. The bigger risk is of course the risk that a vaccine doesn't work and that may take a long time to determine given the risk to any one individual of contracting Covid 19 over say a year or two is low. One thing we can be happy about--given our status as the world's leading hot spot for the disease, the drug companies will want to test it here, so if you want to get the vaccine sooner rather than later you're in luck. If you're Canadian, tough luck.

Polio is interesting. The problem was not in the design of the vaccine but in the manufacture of a particular batch by a particular manufacturer. Overall the Salk vaccine prevented many more cases than it caused. The problem was that the vaccine consisted of killed virus and the bad lot had live virus in it. Unless the Covid vaccine consists of inactivated whole virus the risk of the vaccine causing the disease seems nonexistent. But a vaccine that contains or produces the spike protein could conceivably cause the cytokine storm that affects many who die of Covid.

Thalidomide is also interesting. At the time drugs weren't tested on pregnant women to be sure they were safe in pregnancy. It was thought that drugs didn't cross the placenta, which I find hard to understand. The drug is still around BTW, but with strong warnings against getting pregnant--for both male and female users; apparently it can be found in semen.

[old goat]

Ok Doc....let’s be truthful.

The OR is kept cold AF cause you guys scrubbed in get hot AF. Amiright? (I probably need to go back and read the post you were responding to)...

As for wearing a mask..I’ve been doing it for 20 years now. You get used to it, but it’s not great. When CV19 first hit, and we( I’m industry not hospital employee) had to wear N95 into all procedures, all I had was an RN95..that thing was torture. I believe it’s made to also filter out oily particles. I’ve got a proper N95 now, and while not at all comfortable, it’s doable. Now most patients have cleared testing and we don’t have to wear them, save an emergent case.

From the beginning, I saw multiple surgeons forgo wearing an N95 during a case..despite the patients unknown COVID status.

Hot as in hot, yes, hot as in turned on, not usually, although when I was an intern there was this one scrub nurse . . .
I never wore an N95 at work, never was even fitted.

[Mazderati]

Friend in a pulmonary residency at a largish regional hospital says their shoes were recently swabbed. 80% tested positive.

[grinch]

Friend in a pulmonary residency at a largish regional hospital says their shoes were recently swabbed. 80% tested positive.

Yikes! Where's that? The 5 second rule is now suspended. I dont care if i drop chocolate or bacon from now on

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[Core Shot]