Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[char_]

I can’t believe the number of frontline folks at my work who are either waffling or declining the vaccine. It’s crazy.


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I think it is totally rationale to be skeptical of a brand new type of vaccine that has been granted a EUA after an unprecedented development timeline under a science denying administration headed by a guy who lies constantly and surrounded by nutjobs who have literally spent the last 10 months denying and undermining the scientific facts.

So really, it is more surprising to me that you can't understand why people are hesitant to get the vaccine.

I'll get one, but this administration that has worked against itself.

[summit]

I can’t believe the number of frontline folks at my work who are either waffling or declining the vaccine. It’s crazy.

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[Benny Profane]

So Benny, if you could get the vaccine tomorrow, you would turn it down?

The question is moot. Ain't happening. I'm in a sweet spot where I will be able to hit my CVS in the Spring when I am allowed to, so, yeah, then, as long as the first group don't turn into lizard people.

[summit]

yeah, then, as long as the first group don't turn into lizard people.

I have an urge to lay out in the sun... so maybe...

I haven't taken PTO in a year. I'll be immune shortly and I'm going to fly to the beach for a week.

[jono]

I think it is totally rationale to be skeptical of a brand new type of vaccine that has been granted a EUA after an unprecedented development timeline under a science denying administration headed by a guy who lies constantly and surrounded by nutjobs who have literally spent the last 10 months denying and undermining the scientific facts.

So really, it is more surprising to me that you can't understand why people are hesitant to get the vaccine.

I'll get one, but this administration that has worked against itself.

People are acting as predicted. Facts haven't been the deciding factor in our public discourse for a while now and a lot of Trump haters are just as acclimated to non-factual reasoning as the people they've been arguing with.

There are a lot of people who've had the vaccine now and the Pfizer study started in April so there are at least a few that have had it for a while. The known history for the virus doesn't go back much further. Waiting a month or two isn't going to change much at this point.

I'm hearing what sounds like the "nature is good" fallacy from a few objectors, but I don't think the why matters: the conclusion wasn't based on anything real and the reasoning won't be, either.

[Deebased]

Well this is an exciting development.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-official.html

MV for a virus that's jumped 7/8 species any thoughts?

[CantDog]

In a fitting fuck you send off to 2020, I got the vaccine last week, developed symptoms that evening and a cough the morning after. Tested positive for covid on 1/1. Incredibly dumb luck to become symptomatic right after I get vaccinated.

I haven’t done any in person patient care in the two weeks prior, only out of household indoor contact has been going grocery shopping and picking up take out. Sucks because I’m scheduled to staff our palliative service in a week which I’ll now miss. Feel bad for my colleagues who will have to pick it up.

Last I’ve heard is I’ll still get the second vaccine on time. Hopefully I’ll have super immunity now.

Fuck this shit, and stay safe. And looking back, I guess I should have been doing Amazon fresh delivery the last 9 months.

[BobMc]

I’ve been quarantining at my house. We’ve just assumed my wife had it as well. Haven’t masked, been sleeping in the same bed, even smoking together.

Took her to get tested yesterday. Results came back this morning, negative. This is some weird stuff.

I started to feel better and now going backwards a bit. I can feel it building in my lungs, pulse oximeter still shows 98% so all is good so far.

[tetzen]

Well there goes that idea: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybe...h=2ecd4fc13c96

Apparently, a fairly large percentage of HCWs are declining the vaccine. We are stuck in limbo for another year is my guess.

Jesus Fucking Christ. Where can I get in line to take these idiots' vaccine since they are refusing to? We are so fucked for generations to come. Does any other country have such pervasive anti-vaxxers?

[DJSapp]

Jesus Fucking Christ. Where can I get in line to take these idiots' vaccine since they are refusing to? We are so fucked for generations to come. Does any other country have such pervasive anti-vaxxers?

Yeah, is there a standby line where we can wait if these HCW's don't want the shot it can be given to the next person?

And for as much as the U.S. has screwed up science during this admin, other 1st world nation's have done their own reviews and are using these vaccines.

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[summit]

Unfortunately details of vaccine development, science, safety, mechanism, and efficacy are not subjects well-taught in healthcare except for physicians, NPs, PAs, MPHs, microbiologists, and pharmacists. Those with a good to deep understanding account for about 10% of healthcare workers.

Nurses (about 15% of healthcare workers) learn some, but most RNs can maybe give you a 2-4 minute explanation of vaccines because they use it in teaching patients, and some of that is just who should get what vaccine.

Most healthcare workers probably would struggle to spout off even 60 seconds of basic vaccine knowledge and likely are not trained to evaluate research and articles.

Remember, the hospital is full of front desk staff, unit clerks, housekeeping, med records folks, IT, and many allied health technicians (EMTs, lab techs, rad techs, CNAs, etc etc) with a few weeks to a few years of training that did not include college microbiology, immunology, and stats.

[powdrhound]

Hopefully, not a stupid question...
If somebody has already had the virus, do they still need to be vaccinated?

[BobMc]

The health department told me I’d have immunity for approx six months after I recover. So I’m gonna say yes.

[Ted Striker]

It's not the distrust of science. It's the distrust of profiteering drug companies working hand in hand with corrupt, evil politicians, both of whom have proven over and over that they do not have the people's well being in their thoughts and actions, just their own insane profits and power. Four years, especially the last year, of Trump did not help at all.

Well, there is a ridiculous amount of distrust and/or disbelief in science in this country - that can't even be argued - but to your point, how many of those people take ACE inhibitors? or Lipitor? or Viagra?

When some dumb fat fuck needs a pill just to remain living there's zero pushback, but a shot to ensure everyone else doesn't die? no way, fuck them!

Skepticism and distrust have become masks for ignorance and selfishness.

[summit]

Hopefully, not a stupid question...
If somebody has already had the virus, do they still need to be vaccinated?

This is debatable.

The virus is tricky and tricks/attacks the immune system to an extent. Some people develop poor immunity. We know antibody levels fall off particularly around 3 months...

We think its really rare to get it again within 3 months, so the guidance is you don't need to get it if you were sick within 3 months, but you can if you want if you are due, or wait to allow others a spot ahead in line.

On the other hand we have evidence that perhaps immunity following infections is pretty durable with evidence showing multiple "types" of immunity even at 8+ months, and this is good news!

The following is not based on data: I would personally think that it would make a lot of sense to still get a shot. Some people worry they'll have unpleasant side effects but personally I know several healthcare providers including physicians who had COVID and chose to get vaccinated and were fine. If I had had COVID-19 I'd wait until 3 months after and then got a shot. If I had unpleasant side effects, I'd consider that shot to be the "2nd booster" and call it good. If I had a tolerable reaction (as is the case for the vast majority), I'd get a second shot.

[Benny Profane]

The health department told me I’d have immunity for approx six months after I recover. So I’m gonna say yes.

How do they know?

[summit]

Skepticism and distrust have become masks for ignorance and selfishness.

Sigworthy!!!

[MTT]

I have a question related to the latest news on how many people have been vacinated.
When are people considered "vacinated"?
After the first shot. After the second shot. After waiting period after the second shot.

Just wondering.

[Benny Profane]

Well, there is a ridiculous amount of distrust and/or disbelief in science in this country - that can't even be argued - but to your point, how many of those people take ACE inhibitors? or Lipitor? or Viagra?

When some dumb fat fuck needs a pill just to remain living there's zero pushback, but a shot to ensure everyone else doesn't die? no way, fuck them!

Skepticism and distrust have become masks for ignorance and selfishness.

Haha, yeah, especially the millions of "generic" viagra pills they order from sketchy internet outlets. Good point.

That said, I have always been very skeptical of most any drug I'm prescribed within our medical system. I've only taken antibiotics once, and, never again unless I'm really sick, which means lying in a hospital bed. That sucked. So many are ingrained to think, oh, all I need is a pill to get better, and most doctors are more than willing to accommodate them, rather than tell them, lose weight, exercise, stop eating crap, and love thy neighbor.

[Benny Profane]

Unfortunately details of vaccine development, science, safety, mechanism, and efficacy are not subjects well-taught in healthcare except for physicians, NPs, PAs, MPHs, microbiologists, and pharmacists. Those with a good to deep understanding account for about 10% of healthcare workers.

Nurses (about 15% of healthcare workers) learn some, but most RNs can maybe give you a 2-4 minute explanation of vaccines because they use it in teaching patients, and some of that is just who should get what vaccine.

Most healthcare workers probably would struggle to spout off even 60 seconds of basic vaccine knowledge and likely are not trained to evaluate research and articles.

Remember, the hospital is full of front desk staff, unit clerks, housekeeping, med records folks, IT, and many allied health technicians (EMTs, lab techs, rad techs, CNAs, etc etc) with a few weeks to a few years of training that did not include college microbiology, immunology, and stats.

But, maybe, these people watch, up close, day after day, how our for profit hospitals run a system only for profit, not the public's, or their well being. Re: All those that were laid off during this pandemic.

[summit]

I have a question related to the latest news on how many people have been vacinated.
When are people considered "vacinated"?
After the first shot. After the second shot. After waiting period after the second shot.

Just wondering.

Debatable terminology... the data say the vaccine starts to have a statistically significant effect at about 10 days after the first shot, but VE of 95% is only achieved at 1-2 weeks after the second shot.

[summit]

But, maybe, these people watch, up close, day after day, how our for profit hospitals run a system only for profit, not the public's, or their well being. Re: All those that were laid off during this pandemic.

If your cynicism about for-profit hospitals causes you to reject a 100% socialized solution to this disaster, then you are not thinking this all the way through.

[tetzen]

Unfortunately details of vaccine development, science, safety, mechanism, and efficacy are not subjects well-taught in healthcare except for physicians, NPs, PAs, MPHs, microbiologists, and pharmacists. Those with a good to deep understanding account for about 10% of healthcare workers.

Nurses (about 15% of healthcare workers) learn some, but most RNs can maybe give you a 2-4 minute explanation of vaccines because they use it in teaching patients, and some of that is just who should get what vaccine.

Most healthcare workers probably would struggle to spout off even 60 seconds of basic vaccine knowledge and likely are not trained to evaluate research and articles.

Remember, the hospital is full of front desk staff, unit clerks, housekeeping, med records folks, IT, and many allied health technicians (EMTs, lab techs, rad techs, CNAs, etc etc) with a few weeks to a few years of training that did not include college microbiology, immunology, and stats.

I would have considered myself in the category of getting that 2-4 minute spiel from the RN on vaccines as my base knowledge up till a few years ago. Somewhat coincidentally, I had a case I worked on that delved deeply into the development cycles of vaccines. Really interesting stuff to dive into. While I could see there are occasional side-effects, its difficult to conclusively attribute the vaccine as the cause, or even sole cause. The adverse events and serious adverse events are the more concerning, but they appear quite rare for any treatment that reaches widespread use.

Even before working on that case, I certainly still would have opted for one of these vaccines, because it's the right thing to do.

[MTT]

Debatable terminology... the data say the vaccine starts to have a statistically significant effect at about 10 days after the first shot, but VE of 95% is only achieved at 1-2 weeks after the second shot.

So what's the number there bitching about on the TV. Interesting just saw a piece on TV about the UK. Seems that they might use a different vacine on the second dose. Because they might not know what the initial dose was? Wow
I wonder how we are handling the logistics. Gotta have medical personal on stite who can handle allergic reaction.
Need to document Who, what and when. Trax follow-up shot.

Image some will do it. And some will really fuck it up.

[Benny Profane]

If your cynicism about for-profit hospitals causes you to reject a 100% socialized solution to this disaster, then you are not thinking this all the way through.

I am all for 100% socialized medical care, especially in a pandemic. I'm not sure how you read me differently. I think that private hospital CEOs that are paid a king's ransom to run a health care business in a way that primarily benefits a hedge fund or private equity firm or corporate shareholders is a crime to humanity and a crying shame. Especially when they participate in billing fraud, on top of everything else.