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  1. #19851
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    JHC! Is the only value of a citizen the immediate economic benefit to they provide? Sure, Jerrod K said that but I we used to be better. And wiser.
    You are correct, sir.

  2. #19852
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    JHC! Is the only value of a citizen the immediate economic benefit to they provide? Sure, Jerrod K said that but I we used to be better. And wiser.

    Rob on ignore. Freedom
    Of course not, but this has been strictly an economic argument.

  3. #19853
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    It takes a village. Really.

  4. #19854
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv2ski View Post
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavir...153503886.html
    No one doubts Norway's success in bringing the pandemic under control. On Friday, there were just 30 people in hospital with coronavirus and five on a ventilator. Only one person had died all week. The per capita death toll is now 44 per million people, just over a tenth of that seen in neighbouring Sweden, where 4,971 people have died.

    But this success has come at a prohibitive social and economic cost. An expert committee charged with carrying out a cost-benefit analysis into the lockdown measures in April estimated that they had together cost Norway 27bn kroner (£2.3) every month. With only 0.7 per cent of Norwegians infected, according to NIPH estimates, there is almost no immunity in the population.

    The expert committee concluded last Friday that the country should avoid lockdown if there is a second wave of infections.

    "We recommend a much lighter approach," the committee's head, Steinar Holden, an Oslo University economics professor, told the Sunday Telegraph. "We should start with measures at an individual level -- which is what we have now -- and if thereís a second wave, we should have measures in the local area where this occurs, and avoid measures at a national level if that is possible."

    Norway's current strategy -- using testing, contact tracing, and home isolation to keep the level of infections down without heavy restrictions -- would be best, the report concluded. But if this 'keep down' strategy fails to prevent a surge in cases, a 'brake strategy' which aims to suppress the rate of transmission but not bring it below 1, would be preferable to a lockdown.

    "If itís necessary to have very strict restrictions for a long time, then the costs are higher than letting the infection go through the population," Holden told the Telegraph. "Because that would be immensely costly."

    According to the report, a brake strategy would cost as much as 234bn kroner (£20bn) less than an "unstable keep-down" scenario, if you assume that those infected gain immunity and that no vaccine is developed until 2023. But it would also lead to a little over 3,000 additional deaths.
    The original idea behind shutdown was to slow spread enough that the medical system could cope and so that PPE and testing resources could be stockpiled. The first has been accomplished, the second never will be, at least under the current administration. Controlling the spread of the virus indefinitely was never the plan. All continued shutdown can do is slow the spread of the virus through the population but it can't reduce the ultimate percent of the population that is infected. The longer shutdown continues the greater the economic damage and in addition, the infrastructure of society and of our personal lives will start to break down with no means or parts to repair it. What happens when your furnace breaks down next winter and there are no parts? It seems reasonable to me to wait for the preliminary results of the current vaccine trials. If the results are sufficiently promising waiting longer would make sense; if it looks like a vaccine is still a long way off we will have no choice but to accept a significant number of deaths. Individuals, especially the retired, will still have the option of isolating themselves, although not as effectively as if everyone else was doing the same.

  5. #19855
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    Please, just don't. Ignore.

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  6. #19856
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    Don't forget old people are also spending lots of money and have lots of money invested. Both of those things are awfully important in keeping an economy humming along.
    And what happens to that money when they die? It goes to heirs who spend and invest that money, charity which puts it to good use, and taxes - with how left leaning this forum is, most probably consider that good use as well.

  7. #19857
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Please, just don't. Ignore.
    Agreed. This inane 'argument' doesn't deserve the bandwidth.

  8. #19858
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    The original idea behind shutdown was to slow spread enough that the medical system could cope and so that PPE and testing resources could be stockpiled. The first has been accomplished, the second never will be, at least under the current administration. Controlling the spread of the virus indefinitely was never the plan. All continued shutdown can do is slow the spread of the virus through the population but it can't reduce the ultimate percent of the population that is infected. The longer shutdown continues the greater the economic damage and in addition, the infrastructure of society and of our personal lives will start to break down with no means or parts to repair it. What happens when your furnace breaks down next winter and there are no parts? It seems reasonable to me to wait for the preliminary results of the current vaccine trials. If the results are sufficiently promising waiting longer would make sense; if it looks like a vaccine is still a long way off we will have no choice but to accept a significant number of deaths. Individuals, especially the retired, will still have the option of isolating themselves, although not as effectively as if everyone else was doing the same.
    They are starting to see the light!

  9. #19859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Please, just don't. Ignore.
    Should be real easy to make me go away. Why can't anyone do it?

  10. #19860
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron johnson View Post
    Of course not, but this has been strictly an economic argument.
    This post is not valid. Economic arguments are quantitative, not qualitative, because choosing the best path always requires comparing actual numbers. You haven't offered any. You can stop now.

  11. #19861
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    I think RJ is actually one of the Jones brothers.
    I remember a bottomless freedom...

  12. #19862
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    The original idea behind shutdown was to slow spread enough that the medical system could cope and so that PPE and testing resources could be stockpiled. The first has been accomplished, the second never will be, at least under the current administration. Controlling the spread of the virus indefinitely was never the plan. All continued shutdown can do is slow the spread of the virus through the population but it can't reduce the ultimate percent of the population that is infected. The longer shutdown continues the greater the economic damage and in addition, the infrastructure of society and of our personal lives will start to break down with no means or parts to repair it. What happens when your furnace breaks down next winter and there are no parts? It seems reasonable to me to wait for the preliminary results of the current vaccine trials. If the results are sufficiently promising waiting longer would make sense; if it looks like a vaccine is still a long way off we will have no choice but to accept a significant number of deaths. Individuals, especially the retired, will still have the option of isolating themselves, although not as effectively as if everyone else was doing the same.
    Actually, the shutdown reduces the r0, which means the virus dies o down. Look at China, Korea, Japan

    Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

  13. #19863
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    ^ Also, many people assume the ratio of old to young affected by COVID is static. As people adapt to circumstance, and higher-risk people take more precautions, while lower risk people relax their vigilance, then the ratio of confirmed cases will shift towards the young, which is what we're seeing now.

    The hospitalization rate and death rate to hospitalization rate will go down if new infections average younger, but it's tendentious to simply assume young people are not at risk.
    There is risk everywhere. The risk of a healthy young person dying from this is minuscule.

  14. #19864
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    One can only ignore reality for so long. Itís been enjoyable seeing the world view of the resident liberal circle jerkers crumble.

  15. #19865
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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    I think RJ is actually one of the Jonas brothers.
    No shit?


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  16. #19866
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    Actually, the shutdown reduces the r0, which means the virus dies o down. Look at China, Korea, Japan

    Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk
    If you could reduce the R0 to less than 1 all over the world, or reduce it in the US to below 1 and then completely isolate the US from places where the R0 is less than 1 the virus would theoretically die out. But in places that shut down like California the R0 was not reduced below one even before limited reopening was started. China, South Korea, and Japan have not wiped out the virus. Wiping out the virus without a vaccine would require more draconian measures for longer than even the most dictatorial countries can maintain.

  17. #19867
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    Quote Originally Posted by steepconcrete View Post
    One can only ignore reality for so long. It’s been enjoyable seeing the world view of the resident liberal circle jerkers crumble.
    lol @ reality. Election year partisan re-framing means ignoring Taiwan, Hong Kong, S Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, and so on, along with ignoring the fact that stay at home orders were lifted in lots of places a month ago. All 50 states have either reopened or are in the process of reopening. Meanwhile people still aren't behaving like they used to.

    If the coronavirus were actually under control at this point, it’s feasible we’d be poised for a V shaped recovery. By ignoring reality you're lowering our chance at a quick recovery.

  18. #19868
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    If you could reduce the R0 to less than 1 all over the world, or reduce it in the US to below 1 and then completely isolate the US from places where the R0 is less than 1 the virus would theoretically die out. But in places that shut down like California the R0 was not reduced below one even before limited reopening was started. China, South Korea, and Japan have not wiped out the virus. Wiping out the virus without a vaccine would require more draconian measures for longer than even the most dictatorial countries can maintain.
    It's worth noting that Japan has been less draconian than the US in most respects. Helps to be ready up front, obviously, but nearly universal use of masks that are designed to work instead of for fashion is a pretty big difference compared to here.

  19. #19869
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    A culture of cooperation and sacrifice of the individual for the good of the many does not hurt either.

    With the relative age of the Japanese population they should have been harvested wholesale by this virus.
    Ooof!

  20. #19870
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    .
    Please don't quote it.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  21. #19871
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    Ron Johnson - not only is there no right to have your opinions respected itís also not anyoneís responsibility here to entertain you.

    You seem to keep missing both of these points.

    Iím sure youíll come back asking for a comment on your previous posts and mentioning something about validity. Just loop back to the above point about us not owing you anything and maybe youíll finally get why I wonít reply.

    Ask TGR for a refund for whatever your costs have been. Godspeed on your journey wherever it takes you.

  22. #19872
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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    I think RJ is actually an ilikecandy alias.
    FIFY.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    "Zee damn fat skis are ruining zee piste !" -Oscar Schevlin

    "Hike up your skirt and grow a dick you fucking crybaby" -what Bunion said to Harry at the top of The Headwaters

  23. #19873
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    A culture of cooperation and sacrifice of the individual for the good of the many does not hurt either.

    With the relative age of the Japanese population they should have been harvested wholesale by this virus.
    Yup. And population density. Ironically, it seems that proximity to China actually turns out to be an advantage.

  24. #19874
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    If you could reduce the R0 to less than 1 all over the world, or reduce it in the US to below 1 and then completely isolate the US from places where the R0 is less than 1 the virus would theoretically die out. But in places that shut down like California the R0 was not reduced below one even before limited reopening was started. China, South Korea, and Japan have not wiped out the virus. Wiping out the virus without a vaccine would require more draconian measures for longer than even the most dictatorial countries can maintain.
    True for China etc, but by still changing the behaviour, doesn't this reduce the r0?

    It's true that not much has improved in the us, but from a distance (I'm in France now), it appears that the lockdown was not nearly s complete as what we had here.

    So,imo, opportunity was wasted.

    Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

  25. #19875
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    It's worth noting that Japan has been less draconian than the US in most respects. Helps to be ready up front, obviously, but nearly universal use of masks that are designed to work instead of for fashion is a pretty big difference compared to here.
    we're no closer to that than we were 3 months ago. Counting on others to protect us is a lost cause (ask women how well that works for birth control). We need N95's for everyone. At least one per day.

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