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  1. #26701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    I guess, I just look at it like its a choice between 2 evils. Which one is less "evil"?
    No it fucking isn't. I'm tired of this whataboutism and "both are the same lol". 200k are dead from COVID because of incompetence and Republicans are more interested in ramming lifetime judges through than getting anything close to a coherent response going. Not to mention the mass obstructionism and hypocrisy. Our republic is about to die because you want to own the libs and are probably more interested in a low tax rate than keeping America from imploding.

  2. #26702
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    Quote Originally Posted by schuss View Post
    No it fucking isn't. I'm tired of this whataboutism and "both are the same lol". 200k are dead from COVID because of incompetence and Republicans are more interested in ramming lifetime judges through than getting anything close to a coherent response going. Not to mention the mass obstructionism and hypocrisy. Our republic is about to die because you want to own the libs and are probably more interested in a low tax rate than keeping America from imploding.
    Yep the lifetime politician has got all the answers. And there is no "you" when talking to me. I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, and won't vote for him again in 2020..don't confuse yourself.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app

  3. #26703
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackattack View Post
    Hold up. The developmentally disabled are warm, compassionate, generous and brave; Trump has none of those qualities.
    Touché

  4. #26704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    Yep the lifetime politician has got all the answers. And there is no "you" when talking to me. I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, and won't vote for him again in 2020..don't confuse yourself.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app
    He's going to do what he's always done - sit in the middle of the Dem party. He doesn't need all the answers, he just needs to not be an active vandal to our government. Perfect is too often the enemy of good or better.
    Apologies for the frustration, but I'm tired of people equating things and pretending like any dem has been even half as bad as McConnell or Trump.

  5. #26705
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    Coronavirus can spread on airline flights, two studies show

    "We conclude that the risk for on-board transmission of SARS-CoV-2 during long flights is real and has the potential to cause COVID-19 clusters of substantial size, even in business class--like settings with spacious seating arrangements well beyond the established distance used to define close contact on airplanes," Khanh's team wrote.
    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


    Kindness is a bridge between all people

    Dunkin’ Donuts Worker Dances With Customer Who Has Autism

  6. #26706
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    Coronavirus can spread on airline flights, two studies show

    "We conclude that the risk for on-board transmission of SARS-CoV-2 during long flights is real and has the potential to cause COVID-19 clusters of substantial size, even in business class--like settings with spacious seating arrangements well beyond the established distance used to define close contact on airplanes," Khanh's team wrote.
    It's always seemed obvious to me that there is a risk of transmission on airplanes. Glad (?) to see that confirmed. Even with masks, some virus will eventually escape the host. The longer the flight, the more virus the host is shedding, the closer the proximity of other passengers and crew the more virus they will be exposed to. The article doesn't say if the secondary cases were symptomatic--presumably the original scientific articles did. Possibly some or all of the secondary cases would be mild if the primary case was wearing a mask, there was some spacing, etc., if in fact viral dose determines severity of disease in whole or in part.

    Or to make a long story short--I ain't flying.

  7. #26707
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    It's always seemed obvious to me that there is a risk of transmission on airplanes. Glad (?) to see that confirmed. Even with masks, some virus will eventually escape the host. The longer the flight, the more virus the host is shedding, the closer the proximity of other passengers and crew the more virus they will be exposed to. The article doesn't say if the secondary cases were symptomatic--presumably the original scientific articles did. Possibly some or all of the secondary cases would be mild if the primary case was wearing a mask, there was some spacing, etc., if in fact viral dose determines severity of disease in whole or in part.

    Or to make a long story short--I ain't flying.
    QFT. I’m amazed by how many people I know who are still doing vacations and stuff via flying. Pure selfishness.

  8. #26708
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    I booked a trip for the family (including flights) for the end of May/beginning of June 2021. We'll see ......

  9. #26709
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    Quote Originally Posted by The SnowShow View Post
    QFT. I’m amazed by how many people I know who are still doing vacations and stuff via flying. Pure selfishness.
    I'm just amazed at how in the beginning of all of this we were told by the surgeon general and Fauci that masks weren't necessary, probably wouldn't help and might even put you at higher risk of getting covid because the mask would trap the molecules. WTF? It seems a no-brainer that a mask would be beneficial. People wear them all the time when they are immunocompromisedor the air is bad.
    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


    Kindness is a bridge between all people

    Dunkin’ Donuts Worker Dances With Customer Who Has Autism

  10. #26710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    The best seat on that airplane is 0A. The next best is 0K. the rest? meh.

    And it's FAs and blow at the Hilton.
    Yeah, right: "coffee, tea or me?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat Sig
    Empirically, the air in an airliner, while recycled, is typically cleaner than air in one's own home due to all the filtration required.
    The origins of HMD
    Fresh air is constantly being introduced via the engines, so it's not all recycled.

  11. #26711
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    ^^^ Huh? from 3/31.

    Cannot locate anyone reputable saying masks trap particles.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...navirus-157476

    Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, revealed on Tuesday that the White House coronavirus task force is seriously considering guidance that Americans wear masks to help thwart the rapid spread of COVID-19.

    But the country’s top infectious disease expert also acknowledged that such a directive has been complicated by the nationwide dearth of personal protective equipment.

    “The idea of getting a much more broad, community-wide use of masks outside of the health care setting is under very active discussion at the task force. The CDC group is looking at that very carefully,” Fauci told CNN.

    “The thing that has inhibited that a bit is to make sure that we don’t take away the supply of masks from the health care workers who need them,” he continued. “But once we get in a situation where we have enough masks, I believe there will be some very serious consideration about more broadening this recommendation of using masks.”

    Fauci cautioned that while “we’re not there yet,” he said he believed the task force was “close to coming to some determination” soon on whether to expand the administration’s recommended mitigation measures to include masks.

    “Because if, in fact, a person who may or may not be infected wants to prevent infecting someone else, one of the best ways to do that is with a mask. So perhaps that’s the way to go,” he said, adding that the subject was “under very active consideration” and would be raised at the task force’s meeting on Tuesday afternoon.
    Keep in mind the shortages of PPE in the early days of this shitstorm.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  12. #26712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    ^^^ Huh? from 3/31.

    Cannot locate anyone reputable saying masks trap particles.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...navirus-157476



    Keep in mind the shortages of PPE in the early days of this shitstorm.
    Sorry... correction and clarification ... not trap out of the air but become infected by touching:

    Masks may actually increase your coronavirus risk if worn improperly, surgeon general warns
    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


    Kindness is a bridge between all people

    Dunkin’ Donuts Worker Dances With Customer Who Has Autism

  13. #26713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Record number of cases in UT the last two days. One HS teacher in ICU after being exposed at school. That school closed about a week ago after a big outbreak and the district is meeting today to decided whether to shut everything down. Ugh, things had been going really well at my 5th-grader's school.
    "going really well" is our problem. We think so, but it isn't so.

    For perspective, in mid-April after a month of lockdown (or what passes for such in America) things were going so well, UT had about 100 cases per day.

    Early September. Eh, "things are going really well," let's start school. About 400 cases per day. Four times worse than April!

    Now, curve is steep/spiking, hard to guess what the case rate is 800/day? 1000? more? (1100 reported)

    Sorry, things are not going really well, and have not been. As long as we continue risky behaviors, Covid spread will remain a potent threat. We manage to slow spread a little, and everyone wants to open more, when that slowing only brought us to a state multiple times worse than April. Early March's handful of cases was bad enough we overcame massive political inertia and declared a lockdown.

    The nature of the virus in human populations remains the same. With no control measures, it may double every 4-5 days. That's 50x-100x or more in a month. In places where numbers are initially small, it looks like things are going really well. But, opening up unrestricted means everyone gets it, with costs in injuries and death.

  14. #26714
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    More than half the people in this country don’t seem to give a fuck anymore, and that side is growing fast. A lot of my super liberal and even scientist/engineer friends don’t wear masks anymore unless they have to, they are sending their kids to daycare and school, and generally starting to disagree with guidelines more and more. They are starting to have parties again too. This is in California.

    What good is all this if only 1/3 of the country is listening?

  15. #26715
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    I see the same things here in Montana. Too much fatigue from trying to be safe.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  16. #26716
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    I see the same things here in Montana. Too much fatigue from trying to be safe.
    In CA, I believe that the strategy for opening businesses and schools has led to people becoming more complacent and lessening their own personal stringency behavior. Also, the messaging from the various levels of government has not been clear or strong enough about needing to tighten-up our personal behavior more as we increase risk in other areas like businesses and schools.

    There was a brief media run on this for a few days, but that was weeks ago. My County’s public health (interim) officer released a brief video a few days ago on social media about this, but it only seems to have been partially taken seriously.

    <sigh>

  17. #26717
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    I'm just amazed at how in the beginning of all of this we were told by the surgeon general and Fauci that masks weren't necessary, probably wouldn't help and might even put you at higher risk of getting covid because the mask would trap the molecules. WTF? It seems a no-brainer that a mask would be beneficial. People wear them all the time when they are immunocompromisedor the air is bad.
    It was a no brainer. Fauci et al knew masks would help but didn't want people to hoard them. If the govt had quietly sequestered all the PPE at the start before hoarding started--after all, we now know Trump knew the seriousness well before the public--the lie wouldn't have been necessary, and that lie did a lot to increase people's distrust in the science. Back then the WHO was saying it's droplets, not aerosol--don't shake hands or touch your face. I'm sure they knew it was airborne spread as well. Any respiratory disease can be spread by aerosol. The smallest aerosol particle is still many times larger than a virus. Why would masks be advised for TB and not Covid. The lie was obvious.

    As far as air filtration on planes. In order for that to work every exhaled breath, cough, sneeze would have to be sucked into a ventilation intake without first encountering another person. Maybe if the took out the oxygen masks and dangled an air intake tube in front of every passenger.

  18. #26718
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    Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

    Was just at a park in Denver. Soccer games going on with kids all up in each other’s business, no masks. Soccer moms yelling, most with masks on. Kids climbing all over the playground equipment, some masks. Some parents congregating with masks, some without. Everyone is on a different page these days.
    Meanwhile the city has gone from 200 cases a day to 600 in a week.

  19. #26719
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    It was a no brainer. Fauci et al knew masks would help but didn't want people to hoard them. If the govt had quietly sequestered all the PPE at the start before hoarding started--after all, we now know Trump knew the seriousness well before the public--the lie wouldn't have been necessary, and that lie did a lot to increase people's distrust in the science. Back then the WHO was saying it's droplets, not aerosol--don't shake hands or touch your face. I'm sure they knew it was airborne spread as well. Any respiratory disease can be spread by aerosol. The smallest aerosol particle is still many times larger than a virus. Why would masks be advised for TB and not Covid. The lie was obvious.

    As far as air filtration on planes. In order for that to work every exhaled breath, cough, sneeze would have to be sucked into a ventilation intake without first encountering another person. Maybe if the took out the oxygen masks and dangled an air intake tube in front of every passenger.
    I certainly understand the concern over hoarding but they could have activated the Defense Production Act and had companies turning out non-N95 masks like so many are doing now. They could have had that ball rolling back in Feburary/March but I know... hindsight is 20/20 (oooh I wonder if that's some sort of metaphor for this year)
    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


    Kindness is a bridge between all people

    Dunkin’ Donuts Worker Dances With Customer Who Has Autism

  20. #26720
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    I certainly understand the concern over hoarding but they could have activated the Defense Production Act and had companies turning out non-N95 masks like so many are doing now. They could have had that ball rolling back in Feburary/March but I know... hindsight is 20/20 (oooh I wonder if that's some sort of metaphor for this year)
    Meanwhile CA paid $90M for N95's made in CA that they just recalled from all the people they gave them to (at least those that are still alive) because the masks failed NIOSH testing.

  21. #26721
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    I certainly understand the concern over hoarding but they could have activated the Defense Production Act and had companies turning out non-N95 masks like so many are doing now. They could have had that ball rolling back in Feburary/March but I know... hindsight is 20/20 (oooh I wonder if that's some sort of metaphor for this year)
    Can someone explain to me why Trump never enacted this for masks and tests? Seems like a real fuck up.

  22. #26722
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    Quote Originally Posted by The SnowShow View Post
    Trump seems like a real fuck up.
    FIFY.

  23. #26723
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    Quote Originally Posted by The SnowShow View Post
    Was just at a park in Denver. Soccer games going on with kids all up in each other’s business, no masks. Soccer moms yelling, most with masks on. Kids climbing all over the playground equipment, some masks. Some parents congregating with masks, some without. Everyone is on a different page these days.
    Meanwhile the city has gone from 200 cases a day to 600 in a week.
    time for herd mentality

  24. #26724
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrieIbex View Post
    time for herd mentality
    He misspoke when he said that. He meant to say herd mortality.

  25. #26725
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    He misspoke when he said that. He meant to say herd mortality.
    Oy!

    So riddle me this: If, and that's a big IF, everyone had started donning masks in Feburary/March coupled with SD, hand washing etc. etc. could we have beaten this thing back to a point where we wouldn't have had to shut down businesses? Cut back on indoor dining, sure but not have had to cut back as drastically as we did.

    And here's another question: Why wasn't wearing masks etc. seen as making necessary sacrafices for the good of the county? Why didn't people rally like they did in WWII? People were willing to make sacrafices for their fellow man and country. They understood the bigger picture. Why didn't that happen with Covid?
    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


    Kindness is a bridge between all people

    Dunkin’ Donuts Worker Dances With Customer Who Has Autism

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