Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[bennymac]

She has the right to express her opinion (that these vaccines are gene therapy). She doesn’t have the right to have that opinion automatically respected - even if it’s published.

She would have to prove that the mRNA covid vaccines change your DNA if she wants to prove they are “gene therapy” by accepted definitions.

If she wants to argue that these vaccines are not gene therapy but that the same safety regulations should still exist for them in parallel well that’s a different argument.

[Trackhead]

Any citation from PubMed must make the argument true/valid.

I hope you realize I was being sarcastic

[old goat]

I would say personal experiences and observations are meaningful and rise beyond anecdotes

That is literally the definition of anecdote. If your personal experiences and observations rise above the level of anecdotes you must be six kinds of special, or more likely, they rise because they're full of hot air.

She has the right to express her opinion (that these vaccines are gene therapy). She doesn’t have the right to have that opinion automatically respected - even if it’s published.

She would have to prove that the mRNA covid vaccines change your DNA if she wants to prove they are “gene therapy” by accepted definitions.

If she wants to argue that these vaccines are not gene therapy but that the same safety regulations should still exist for them in parallel well that’s a different argument.

My take is the same as yours--that she broadens the definition of gene therapy. In that sense her argument is semantics, not science.
Of note she doesn't say any of the potential dangers of the mRNA vaccines she cites have actually occured, beyond the rare complications that became apparent early on. She says they could occur and that the vaccines warrant further study. Which is hard to argue with and I have no doubt that the covid vaccines will be the subject of scientific study for decades to come, assuming we aren't wiped out by the next novel virus.

The trick is to adequately regulate vaccines without stifling new ones. The bad batch polio vaccine didn't lead to the banning of polio vaccines. It led to improved manufacturing standards and regulation, so that AFAIK the problem never recurred. The extremely generous standards by which people are compensated for just about any bad health problem occuring in temporal proximity to vaccination have allowed companies to pursue new vaccines without the fear of ruinous liability judgements. Those standards unfortunately have provided a lot of grist for the conspiracy theory mill.

[bennymac]

I hope you realize I was being sarcastic

I didn’t 🤷 😆

[Trackhead]

I didn’t �� ��

Oh shit...........yeah I was, and it's my defacto language.

You can find a citation in PubMed to literally support whatever bullshit argument you want, as we know.

[bennymac]

I was between sets during leg day with an injured knee so probably was feeling extra sensitive 😆

[waveshello]

Data from CDC
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/me...allace-508.pdf

Slide 11, shows a seroprevalence study of Covid antigens in blood donations last summer. It shows 26% of those 65+ have never had Covid. 14% of the 50-64 crowd never had covid. 9% of the 30-49 crowd never had covid. I'd embed the slide but don't know how. So if you think blood donors are reasonably representative of the population, then there's still many of us who've never had covid, though we're outnumbered by the diseased.

Slide 43 shows a survey asking people whether they took specific Covid precautions last Fall. 39% of whites took at least one of the precautions. About 70% of blacks and latinos did.

Excess mortality is what I usually like to refer to when people get all skeptical of this stuff... the numbers don't lie.

https://public.tableau.com/app/profi...lyExcessDeaths

Attachment 489692

“Benny, is that chart COVID morbidity or general morbidity? I have to ask because I'd actually expect it to look the similar either way, including in pre-covid years. Wouldn't be surprised if there was a strong correlation there.”

That chart is covid mortality after the vaccine was released.

Before the covid vaccine was released the mortality from covid was equal amongst all states.

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the responses, links, facts, etc. LSL, I didn't know those blood donation statistics existed--very good info, thanks for that. Bennymac, thanks for clarifying--just out of curiosity I'd love to see a total morbidity per 100k by state chart pre and mid-pandemic. I looked but didn't see anything like that.

Wait until you hear about the flu vaccine - get this, you can still get the flu. OMG. Only been around since 1945 so you're probably not up on this new stuff.

Regarding the vax push - I remember when our hospitals were overrun, complete with portable freezers to house the corpses. A medical crisis impacting those afflicted and extending into others with unrelated medical issue. Services and resources were in short supply. So - tell me again - how mitigations to deal with this national emergency (your responsibility as a citizen to avoid getting critically ill, further taxing our health systems) was overreach or unwarranted?

JFC.

Mmm, castigate me harder daddy.

No problem. I don't actually think the attempted mitigations were ever unwarranted. We were all hopeful and looking forward to a vaccine. Most of us probably masked up, kept our distance, worked from home, etc.--we did what we could to "stop the spread". I got to be the 'COVID czar' for the little company I worked for at the beginning of 2020 and did my best to implement all the CDC/DOH mitigations. If I didn't have fear about how the vaccine might effect the neurological issues I was having, I would have gotten it right away like a lot of people. I waited because I was hoping to resolve that issue, and then started having doubts/concerns.

I thought it became overreach was when it became apparent that the vaccine was not as effective as promised, not as durable as promised, required more boosters than promised, caused more adverse reactions than advertised, and yet, many people were forced to make a decision between their livelihood and becoming vaccinated. The only reason I kept my job is because I happened to be working for a customer that didn't require it on their job site.

I felt like it was overreach when my younger brother (20) was told that he couldn't play his last season of college football unless he got the vaccine. He got it so he could play, and missed the last half of the season due to a lingering adverse reaction. He still suffers from undiagnosed fainting spells.

I felt like it was overreach when a friend of my family (late 20s, male, national guard) was required to be vaccinated, and post-vaccine had an autoimmune reaction that ended with a colonoscopy.

More personal anecdotes, uh huh. I am also willing to consider that those issues could be unrelated to the vaccine, but the timing was inconvenient to say the least. Anyway, that's my take on overreach--I do think it happened, and it damaged the public's relationship to medicine specifically in regard to COVID and generally.


That's all I got. I really do appreciate the data y'all are throwing my way. I like data--I'm not closed-minded on this issue and have learned from and will continue to reflect on what's been shared. Like I said, I felt spurred to comment about parallels drawn between the covid vaccine and the measles vaccine, which I don't really see. I'm fully on board with the comparison to the flu vaccine.

[CarlMega]

^politely going to disagree. The things you claim were promised, were not promised by SMEs/credible authorities. I could dice your words some here but it wouldn't be productive.

Regarding the supposition of cause/effect of vaccine negative reactions/injury - welp, let's just say I find it suspect unless there is a conclusive diagnosis from a medical professional. Hard to believe this, I know...but a lot of vaccine skeptics have laid blame to vax for any and all ailments, deaths post vaccine. Some of the less credible ones lay these claims for ailments even prior to vaccination. It's a sorry lot.

Military guy getting vaccines while in service? I have no problem with that requirement. Bummer I guess but you're property of uncle sam - get in line for your 20 vaccines that ensure you don't infect your fellow soldiers. Or become a burden by falling ill. Or don't voluntarily enlist. This is not new or hidden.

During a pandemic times, playing discretionary school sports where you'll be in close contact with a huge population of people and fellow athletes? Precautionary vaccine? Sorry, not sorry.

Given your medical condition, I understand your concern and respect your decision. But during the height of the crisis and the myriad unknowns, the policy should reflect the good of public health and our ability to have a functional medical system and support critical (infrastructure) systems. Yeah, this pandemic wasn't on everyone's personal timeline. It certainly impacted many lives and there were hard decisions that needed to be made; I don't envy those people.

I stiffen a bit at some of the retelling of the pandemic times. People see where we are now and don't give the circumstances of the times due respect. From where I sit, it turned out nearly as fortunate as could be conceived: record time vaccines that worked by preventing critical disease and a lucky spread of variants with less mortality. It didn't have to go that way, and the health experts certainly could not have predicted it. Hope for the best, plan for the worse? Graph the likelihood of scenario with the corresponding consequence of it coming to fruition? Heavy matters where your inaction means you can't unring that bell. Disingenuous hindsight 20/20 'gotcha' pundits ain't got shit worth sharing; they never were in a position to make the tough decisions nor could appreciate the choices at the time.

[old goat]

I remember Fauci saying something to the effect that if vaccines? masking? lockdown? was successful people would conclude that it wasn't necessary. Anyone remember which of those he was talking about?

Here's my anecdote--50 year old good friend, small business owner, wife and a couple of kids in HS and college, refused vaccination, died of covid. Wife is struggling to keep the business running and make enough for the mortgage food and college. Guy's father and brother are doctors (internal medicine), his sister is a PhD in entomology.

I wonder if waveshello's brother's lingering problems have anything to do with, you know, playing football. Because we know that's a lot worse for your health than vaccines.

[bennymac]

Naw man that was me. Maybe Fauci peruses this thread though and took that as his own