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Thread: Miniaturizing beacon technology
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01-11-2020, 04:39 PM #1
Miniaturizing beacon technology
What would make beacons more useful,
is making them more convenient to carry.
Seems like a lot of plastic to me.
I'd rather play safe than carry my beacon (Tracker).
But I'd probably still be avy aware, and feel better prepared if I had my beacon on.
So what makes these things so big?
Has anyone dissected one?
Can't they be made much smaller, thinner, lighter?OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman Big Billie Eilish fan.
But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er
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01-11-2020, 05:19 PM #2
Spoke to a tech at ISPO last year: The length of the antennas is where it’s at. You have 3 antennas in all three axis. One goes from top to bottom, one from left to right and The shortest one goes from the front to the back, so the thicker the beacon is the longer the z-antenna can be.
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01-11-2020, 05:22 PM #3
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01-11-2020, 05:27 PM #4
I get the antenna logic. Z is thickness.
But seriously, there has to be a better way. Wasn’t that long ago we didn’t have z axis on beacons. And the new beacons are better for sure, but I agree with op. There has to be a better tech that will be more convenient every day inbounds.
How small are the transmit only dog beacons?
If you’re not searching, cause your inbounds, how small could a beacon be?
Recco receivers suck. It’s like finding a shoplifting passive tag.
An active transmit only beacon could be easily stuffed in a pocket for inbounds everyday ski wear.. . .
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01-11-2020, 05:32 PM #5
Small things are hard to use when you have big gloves on.....
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01-11-2020, 06:07 PM #6
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01-11-2020, 06:26 PM #7
You can make a pretty small transmit only beacon. Look at the Pieps Backup:
https://beaconreviews.com/Specs_PiepsBackup.php
Recco is a pretty good solution for resorts and with practice you can get good with it. The 3rd victim in the Silver Mountain accident was found with a recco.When life gives you haters, make haterade.
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01-11-2020, 07:02 PM #8
In regards to if you aren’t searching why three antennas: three antennas are still a good idea to get optimum coupling with the searching beacon. The plane of burial for a single or double antenna will drastically alter the readable distance of the signal. You will be found faster and more accurately while transmitting with three antennas.
I agree with reccos not being ideal. I worked in the avalanche industry for a decade and trained on recco often. It’s occasionally alright, but certainly didn’t feel definitive. The final victim in the Silver Mt. incident was found a day later, if I recall correctly.
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01-11-2020, 10:01 PM #9
Don't most three antenna beacons search with all three antennas, but only transmit on one? A few years ago, the Ortovox S1+ was unique in that it selected the best of the three antennas to transmit based on burial position. Haven't kept up on it, maybe more brands now have that feature.
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01-11-2020, 10:32 PM #10
Ah, maybe so! I have some reading to do.
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01-11-2020, 11:44 PM #11
From BeaconReview.com:
All avalanche transceivers transmit on one antenna. However, the Ortovox 3+, S1+, and Zoom+ have a unique feature wherein they select which antenna they will transmit on based on the transceiver's physical orientation. This can potentially increase the distance where searcher will receive the signal. The Pieps DSP Sport and DSP Pro have a feature where they will transmit on the second antenna if the primary antenna senses interference.
It seems like it was a stop gap for dealing with older single antenna beacons?When life gives you haters, make haterade.
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01-11-2020, 11:55 PM #12Registered User
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Biggest thing holding back innovation is this is a niche market. We all have cell phones but very few have avalanche transceivers. Need more $ to pay the engineers. I think the peips micro is the smallest out right now.
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01-12-2020, 09:15 AM #13Gel-powered Tech bindings
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01-12-2020, 09:45 AM #14Gel-powered Tech bindings
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Now tied with this new model:
https://skimo.co/arva-evo5-beacon#tab-review
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01-12-2020, 04:34 PM #15Registered User
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01-12-2020, 04:41 PM #16
Antenna size and frequency are related.
At 457 kHz, the antenna must be huge.
They use carrier keying every second, so battery use on transmit is very low.
So it is obviously a fraction wavelength antenna,
and as such, perhaps can be further miniaturized.
All beacons with FCC approval are available at the FCC site:
Pieps DSP 03
https://fccid.io/REMDSP03/Internal-P...photos-2980145
BCA Tracker 2
https://fccid.io/OUNT2/Internal-Phot...photos-1160437OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman Big Billie Eilish fan.
But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er
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01-12-2020, 04:57 PM #17
In the Silver Mountain avalanche thread there’s a discussion about Recco locators in Austria and elsewhere. In 1991 I bought a Degré 7 jacket that had recco plastic devices so this technology still hasn’t advanced much.
I realize it’s a niche market but unless we start talking about it...Well maybe I'm the faggot America
I'm not a part of a redneck agenda
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01-12-2020, 05:39 PM #18OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman Big Billie Eilish fan.
But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er
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01-12-2020, 07:22 PM #19
What do you mean by an active tag? Recco detectors are actually a pulse harmonic UHF RADAR unit that emits around 900MHz (at about 1 or 1.5ish watts in the handlheld units that weigh about 1kg) and listens at about 1.8GHz giving the pulse returns as analog audio. It only works at range (particularly at those frequencies) because it is has a large antenna and a large battery compared to a 457KHz beacon and is made to operate for a much shorter period of time. They have a 5 figure cost so it is only economical because very few detectors are made while tons of reflectors are sold with a good profit margin.
The beauty of RECCO is that the reflector tabs cost very little because they are just a little frequency doubling dipole antenna made of foil and a cheap diode. They require no turning on, can be sealed and washed, and are durable.
As soon as you say "active tag" you mean powered and now you have more parts, costs, on-off switch, battery, and what your are describing is a transmitter... like say.. an avalanche beacon.Originally Posted by blurred
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01-12-2020, 08:34 PM #20Meadowskipping old fart
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I don't think the issue is money. I doubt you can make significant changes without changing to a new, incompatible, standard. Then the issue is would the benefits of the new standard beacons be so great that it is worth many years of the very real danger of trying to search for a victim with an incompatible beacon.
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01-12-2020, 09:41 PM #21Registered User
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01-12-2020, 10:22 PM #22
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01-12-2020, 10:51 PM #23
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01-12-2020, 11:11 PM #24
[PG's advocate]An "active" Recco tag could simply be a regular one with a very small battery and amplifier, which could still be very cheap and sealed--depending on how long you wanted the battery to last. Lots of ways to recharge, too, of course, but requiring user interaction heads toward Summit's point, so pick a real passive one. Unless the 900 MHz frequency is encountered so rarely that the battery lasts really long anyway. [/PG's advocate]
Third victim at Silver was found dead and two others found before her also did not survive, so bringing out the Recco for a timely rescue does seem unlikely--a single example after all these years? Not sure I'd want to go down that path at all.
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01-12-2020, 11:19 PM #25
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