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  1. #26
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    To invest in an active easier-to-detect recco tab does little to the solve the original question. What is the point? It still cannot be used for companion rescue, which is the entire purpose of the avalanche transceiver.

    The current recco system work adequately once deployed. The rumor is that the 3rd Silver victim was found buried at 6m which has a survival probability approaching 0% under any circumstance. That they were found by a (special) helicopter recco detector on day 2, after handheld detectors had already been used to sweep the field... it most likely indicates that the victim was not wearing a RECCO reflector at all, but that the advanced detector was sensitive enough to detect a consumer electronic device (which you can sometimes do with a handheld detector).

    But I am not certain about whether the victim had a recco tab.... I don't have that kind of information. Another possibility is that the victim was wearing a tab that was shielded (perhaps an active tab would help here, but wearing 2 passive tabs is an easier failsafe).
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickinbc View Post
    I don't think the issue is money. I doubt you can make significant changes without changing to a new, incompatible, standard. Then the issue is would the benefits of the new standard beacons be so great that it is worth many years of the very real danger of trying to search for a victim with an incompatible beacon.
    You raise a great point with having to design backwards compatibility holding back development. Very true. Making old transceivers obsolete has only really happened once, moving from 2.275khz to 457. Still i think if only 50,000 units ( I believe that was the number used in an Avsar course I took last year, but it could be a few 10k more) are sold world wide by all manufactures combined there is just limited profit that can be made.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    To invest in an active easier-to-detect recco tab does little to the solve the original question....

    The current recco system work adequately once deployed.
    These things seem somewhat at odds with each other: the first seems valid enough, but it's hard to imagine the current system being adequate in the context of the original question, since it is exceedingly rare that it saves a life. Adequate for body recovery at minimal cost, ok, but not adequate for the OP purposes.

    The Backup seems to represent a much better answer in any case.

  4. #29
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    Sounds like Silver Mtn. doesn't own a Recco detector:
    https://www.spokesman.com/stories/20...alanche-victi/
    Last edited by sfotex; 01-13-2020 at 09:34 AM.
    When life gives you haters, make haterade.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfotex View Post
    Sounds like Silver Mtn, doesn't own a Recco detector:
    https://www.spokesman.com/stories/20...alanche-victi/
    Wow. I thought everyone with an avalanche mitigation program had a detector these days
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    The beauty of RECCO is that the reflector tabs cost very little because they are just a little frequency doubling dipole antenna made of foil and a cheap diode. They require no turning on, can be sealed and washed, and are durable.
    This is what I’m getting at, make the Recco reflector tab, (or equivalent), part of your lift ticket that goes in your pocket. It needs to be designed cheaper or more reflective or whatever, but everyone has it then.
    Well maybe I'm the faggot America
    I'm not a part of a redneck agenda

  7. #32
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    Mini personal locator beacons. It'll happen. My father in law told me we would have cars that drive themselves. 40 years ago.
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    Mini personal locator beacons. It'll happen. My father in law told me we would have cars that drive themselves. 40 years ago.
    Once you have the government chip implanted, you'll never be lost again.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  9. #34
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    That's what I predict. Middle of the forehead implant so it's obvious. Like a license plate. 2040.
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  10. #35
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    Miniaturizing bacon technology is antithetical to my interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfotex View Post
    While the backup isn't meant to be used without a regular beacon, it shows how small you can go..Attachment 310424
    ^^^ this.
    That's a great idea. Not a companion rescue setup but for some people, they really only want to be able to be found in the slackcountry when skiing without a backpack and avy gear.

    And further to the active patch antenna idea, I don't see why the system has to be fixed in a single unit.
    They come with a three point strap, why not have an antenna built into the strap? Or perhaps a unit that does duty as Transmit and a second unit, that does duty as Search.

    If the box is too big and not ergonomic, and limited in some way,
    think outside the box.
    [KURTZ] Hinterstoisser, you heavy bastard.
    [HINTERSTOISSER] You need to do more push-ups, Kurtz.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowaddict91 View Post
    Surely you can't be serious. I feel like a beacon on a harness just disappears once its been on a few minutes. Maybe I just have too much crap in my pack weighing me down?
    Nothing beats trying to take a layer off, realizing that a plethora of straps and accessories first needs to be removed.
    BCA Tracker is a bit thick ... but I guess it does protect your spleen in the event of a fall. Ouch.
    [KURTZ] Hinterstoisser, you heavy bastard.
    [HINTERSTOISSER] You need to do more push-ups, Kurtz.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    That's a great idea. Not a companion rescue setup but for some people, they really only want to be able to be found in the slackcountry when skiing without a backpack and avy gear.
    Are you suggesting that there are people who understand the avalanche danger, want to ski avalanche terrain, but don't want companion rescue capability? And that the industry should enable such selfish irresponsible desires by making a new product?

    Pieps and RECCO have specifically said that is not their intent.

    No company could develop such a product in good conscience with that intent.

    What is wrong with you dude? Shove that idea of the "slackcountry" right back in the pit where you found it.

    If you want a location device for the backcountry that is going to have a super low save rate because it relies on the longer response time of organized rescue, well the options are out there already.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Are you suggesting that there are people who understand the avalanche danger, want to ski avalanche terrain, but don't want companion rescue capability? And that the industry should enable such selfish irresponsible desires by making a new product?

    Pieps and RECCO have specifically said that is not their intent.

    No company could develop such a product in good conscience with that intent.

    What is wrong with you dude? Shove that idea of the "slackcountry" right back in the pit where you found it.

    If you want a location device for the backcountry that is going to have a super low save rate because it relies on the longer response time of organized rescue, well the options are out there already.
    I wouldn't bother arguing or addressing PG.

    He seems like the type of guy who thinks the stuff they use to solve crimes on those CSI shows is real.

    The opposite of miniaturizing is the way to go. The opposite of send/reflect only is the way to go.

    IMHO, one potential method for improving would be to build multiple arrays of very strong send / return antennas into a base layer shirt and long johns. It would fuck up the antenna alignment, but with more antennae, a stronger signal, and longer reach, it may overcome that. Obviously I haven't tested this.

    You'd still need to power the system and have some type of search interface. But you'd likely be able to run a variety (and especially longer wave length) of frequencies for faster area searches and more accuracy for deeper burials, which could save valuable time. Automatic switching between frequencies and antennae alignments depending on orientation could help as searchers approached.

    Just a back of the napkin idea I've had for a while. Obviously a problem with electronics and multiple antennae arrays in inherently damp, washable, foldable environs, but more plausible in terms of physics than shrinking a fully functional send return search system transmitting and receiving at a useful frequency (ie. with the necessary antennae) into a recco tag.

    Trademarked. Boiler plate, boiler plate.
    Last edited by reckless toboggan; 01-14-2020 at 12:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Are you suggesting that there are people who understand the avalanche danger, want to ski avalanche terrain, but don't want companion rescue capability? And that the industry should enable such selfish irresponsible desires by making a new product?

    Pieps and RECCO have specifically said that is not their intent.

    No company could develop such a product in good conscience with that intent.

    What is wrong with you dude? Shove that idea of the "slackcountry" right back in the pit where you found it.

    If you want a location device for the backcountry that is going to have a super low save rate because it relies on the longer response time of organized rescue, well the options are out there already.
    Well said.

  16. #41
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    I think there is a legit argument for selling mini transmitters.
    Assuming they are for inbounds only tourists.

    More folks are getting in the habit of beeping inbounds on big pow days.
    Obviously it would suck wearing a transmitter and being unable to search if something went. But the folks that bought these wouldn’t want to train or learn to search anyways.
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
    Hunter S. Thompson

  17. #42
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    Having a bunch of gapers that don't know anything about companion rescue milling around/losing their shit while wearing transmit only beacons would be my worst nightmare if trying to do a beacon search.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norseman View Post
    All ye punterz! Leave thine stupid heavy skis in the past, or at least in the resort category, for the age of lightweight pussy sticks is upon us! Behold! Keep up with the randocommandos on their carbon blades of shortness! Break thine tibias into spiral splinters with pintech extravagance!

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    I think there is a legit argument for selling mini transmitters
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chupacabra View Post
    Once you have the government chip implanted, you'll never be lost again.
    Once?

    We already know where you are and what you're doing.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    I think there is a legit argument for selling mini transmitters.
    Assuming they are for inbounds only tourists.
    NONONONONO

    What Adrenalated said

    Not to mention, if you are going to bury a dozen people in close proximity, I'd rather them have RECCO tabs because solving a 12x proximity beacon burial is going to be an extreme challenge for well practiced rescuers.
    Last edited by Summit; 01-14-2020 at 04:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    I think there is a legit argument for selling mini transmitters.
    Assuming they are for inbounds only tourists.

    More folks are getting in the habit of beeping inbounds on big pow days.
    Obviously it would suck wearing a transmitter and being unable to search if something went. But the folks that bought these wouldn’t want to train or learn to search anyways.
    what could possibly go wrong?
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    NONONONONO

    What Adrenalated said

    Not to mention, if you are going to bury a dozen people in close proximity, I'd rather them have RECCO tabs because solving a 12x proximity beacon burial is going to be an extreme challenge for well practiced rescuers.
    Got a point there. Makes sense

    Nvrmind
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
    Hunter S. Thompson

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    what could possibly go wrong?
    That Australian(?) company a few years back tried to market such a thing if I recall correctly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    I think there is a legit argument for selling mini transmitters.
    Assuming they are for inbounds only tourists.

    More folks are getting in the habit of beeping inbounds on big pow days.
    Obviously it would suck wearing a transmitter and being unable to search if something went. But the folks that bought these wouldn’t want to train or learn to search anyways.
    Fuck em. I look at it the same way I look at organ donation. Only those that were willing to donate should get a donation.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by EEC View Post
    Small things are hard to use when you have big gloves on.....


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    So much this.
    They ain't exactly heavy.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

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