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  1. #126
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    Dec 2008
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    Speaking from personal experience I don't think the you tube comes even close to the gruesomeness of an actual body recovery. I've witnessed my fair share. As far as the monday morning quarterbacking goes, high risk sports involves consequence. The perils and pitfalls of mitigation I thought were addressed well by others in this thread. My girlfriend is fond of saying: " The avalanche doesn't know that you're an expert." Have fun, be careful, use your backcountry strategy when skiing rope drops. The ravages of time will destroy us all. Today is a gift, especially when it involves double figures of snowfall.

  2. #127
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    Dec 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    All of you that are aiding and abetting negligence here are despicable. An avalanche of this size, occurring on open terrain of that nature isn't "the raw power of mother nature" it's inexcusable. Full Stop. The snow safety director and patrol director there need to lose their jobs, and should never be able to work in those fields again, anywhere. They fucked up by opening that terrain to the public.

    If you disagree, you're wrong, AND you're welcome to go fuck yourself.

    But sure, go ahead and be corporate apologists, I would expect nothing less from the legions of herpetic sphincters around here.
    You're such a jack ass.
    Last edited by raisingarizona13; 01-17-2020 at 09:28 PM.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  3. #128
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    Nov 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyfromterrace View Post
    Thoughts going out to him, the families and friends of those lost and to you 2FUNKY. Really, really shitty. Some miraculousnous too however with recoveries of non-beeping folks... man. Good reminder to beep inbounds and think about avi safety even if inbounds. Take care buddy.
    Thanks G! Last weekend was somber up there with some moments of great joy due to the new snow. Dropped into the top shack to sit and talk with patrol monday. Heavy hearts all around. Things will get better with time.

  4. #129
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    Aug 2011
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    Cascadia
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldMember
    My heart goes out to the entire Silver community...…………... I have skied this very area many times myself since my first trip to Jackass Ski Bowl in 1969. I've never seen it go like it did at any time we skied there. It's a freak event.
    I'll add my 2 cents here. Not that it will likely help anyone or bring anyone back. But there might be something to learn from this event. I started skiing at Jackass in '71. Which is now a small part of Silver Mtn for those unaware. Still ski there on occasion, on the old chair and Wardner, often chasing storms in from the coast waiting for them to hit Silver. This one certainly makes me rethink that idea now.

    I also spent ten years and some change working on that mtn, doing everything from running a Cat, throwing bombs, to the hill management. I have never seen Warner slide that big, ever when the area was open to the public. I have seen pictures of Warner Peak and Kellogg Peak sliding from the summit into the town of Wardner with a number of fatalities. All 3500' of the two major slide paths during the late 1880s and early 1900s. So we all knew it had happened. And we knew it could happen again if one was inattentive. It would seem the current and suspect hoar frost layer this year was pretty well known in the Panhandle snowpack. More important to me looking at the cause of these slides was the storm event and resulting wind load.

    I've been trying to collect data on this slide that seems to be scarce in detail from my perspective. TGR is the only place I have read that day of the accident was also first day of the season Wardner was open.

    For the Pros that do this chit daily it aint rocket science. You dig snow pits for a reason, you bomb , ski cut as required and when it doubt about conditions, specific areas get shut down for 24/48 hrs. Warner being closed after a big storm for 24 to 48 hrs was a common practice back in the day. And people bitched. I suspect there will be a lot less bitching now if that decision is made. Having been there and actually done that in this instance I have a lot of questions about what specifically was done for control work in the 12 hrs prior to this slide.

    Truly my heart goes out to the victims, the families and all the Silver's crew that were involved. But I aint swallowing this was a "freak" incident. No question Silver has dangerous terrain. The ski area and that specific run have been open since 1969. 16:1 ( the run that slid ) likely sees more traffic now than it ever has in the past 50 years.

    The lessons here are too numerous to list.
    But there are lessons, for the skiing public on any mountain with a serious avi hazard, and the mountain's management.
    Last edited by Dane1; 01-23-2020 at 07:29 PM.

  5. #130
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    Oct 2010
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    Well put, Dane. I have been involved in emergency services in the past, and had the unfortunate experience of being close to two employee fatalities. Mourning the loss is absolutely acceptable, but so is investigation of decision-making and policy following those incidents.

    Chocking things up to bad luck serves the families and loved ones and the rest of us that justify our risks skiing this terrain, but it doesn’t serve anyone going forward when it comes to risk mitigation.

  6. #131
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    Oct 2009
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    49
    Quote Originally Posted by splat View Post
    Dogs and Recco don't come anywhere near what the beep will do. Strapping on is what savers you.
    I think if you have a normal burial, with a dog and a well trained companion rescue, the dog will beat the beacon search 95% of the time. Coming from a dog handler and full time ski patroller. Our dogs beat patrollers all the time

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by haysman16 View Post
    Our dogs beat patrollers all the time
    Huh. I never would have guessed that. Turns out dogs are awesome in yet another way.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by haysman16 View Post
    I think if you have a normal burial, with a dog and a well trained companion rescue, the dog will beat the beacon search 95% of the time. Coming from a dog handler and full time ski patroller. Our dogs beat patrollers all the time
    I'd heard this before (probably from chatting with Alpine Meadows patrollers on the chair over the years). Cool to see it confirmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    Huh. I never would have guessed that. Turns out dogs are awesome in yet another way.
    They are but companion rescue is still the most important skill to save your partner and unfortunately too many people skills in that department arent at the level they need to be to start an effective rescue before the dogs and patrollers show up
    I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.

  10. #135
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    Dec 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by haysman16 View Post
    I think if you have a normal burial, with a dog and a well trained companion rescue, the dog will beat the beacon search 95% of the time. Coming from a dog handler and full time ski patroller. Our dogs beat patrollers all the time
    Sure, if the dog and handler are on scene.
    How often is that the case?
    Ooof!

  11. #136
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    Mar 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    Sure, if the dog and handler are on scene.
    How often is that the case?
    That would be a pretty legit experiment to conduct. A well-trained dog versus an experienced human in an avvy field would make for some interesting tests.

    But my hot take is that while competing in a controlled environment would produce close times, the stress of being in a such a situation gives the dog an edge.

    I mean, while a human has a range of emotions to deal with, the only things going through the dog's mind are "Oh boy! Snow and people! I'm excited! What's this- Something to smell? Okay let me follow my nose!".

  12. #137
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    Silver Mt, ID 1/7/2020 Two Fatalities

    Quote Originally Posted by S_jenks View Post
    That would be a pretty legit experiment to conduct. A well-trained dog versus an experienced human in an avvy field would make for some interesting tests.

    But my hot take is that while competing in a controlled environment would produce close times, the stress of being in a such a situation gives the dog an edge.

    I mean, while a human has a range of emotions to deal with, the only things going through the dog's mind are "Oh boy! Snow and people! I'm excited! What's this- Something to smell? Okay let me follow my nose!".
    Most recreational backcountry users tend to overestimate their abilities and skill sets in this area, it takes time and practice to be proficient which few follow up on after their one day classes covering companion rescue instead they seem to argue about shit like which pocket makes them faster. Ive seen dogs clear a 100m x 100m site with 2 live burials and 3 articles of clothing in less than ten minutes. The people are in holes 2m deep and the clothing articles are used to simulate deeper burials of a person without a transceiver. Good luck to anyone that is faster
    I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.

  13. #138
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    Dec 2008
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    Yeah, but how long to get a dog on scene?

    Especially in a Backcountry / recreational rescue scenario. It's just body recovery usually at that point.

  14. #139
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    I was more focused on an in bounds scenario.

    There are times where a dog is readily available, and other times when 5-10 minutes may elapse before on scene while a trained professional or 2 may already be on scene.

    I have little doubt from my experiences that if a human and a dog at started at the same time the dog will be faster.
    Ooof!

  15. #140
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    Oct 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    Sure, if the dog and handler are on scene.
    How often is that the case?
    Ya for sure the odds of having a dog being close vs someone with a beacon in an inbounds slide scenario is pretty low, but Just like a RECCO, if in the right place/time they are more than just a body recovery tool.

  16. #141
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    Nov 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by haysman16 View Post
    Ya for sure the odds of having a dog being close vs someone with a beacon in an inbounds slide scenario is pretty low, but Just like a RECCO, if in the right place/time they are more than just a body recovery tool.
    I'll take dog over Recco every time.

  17. #142
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    Oct 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowaddict91 View Post
    I'll take dog over Recco every time.
    It depends on the dog.

    I've been on slides where the dog made the find, and quickly. Although, on those there was no recco.

    I've been on slides where the dogs couldn't make the find and it was the recco that finally made it.

    I'll take the best dog + handler over a recco run by an average tech, but I'll take the best tech with the recco over an average dog.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    It depends on the dog.

    I've been on slides where the dog made the find, and quickly. Although, on those there was no recco.

    I've been on slides where the dogs couldn't make the find and it was the recco that finally made it.

    I'll take the best dog + handler over a recco run by an average tech, but I'll take the best tech with the recco over an average dog.
    Good points. I was hoping someone with more experience/perspective than I would chime in.

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowaddict91 View Post
    Good points. I was hoping someone with more experience/perspective than I would chime in.
    They have
    I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.

  20. #145
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    Feb 2009
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    CA
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    Patrol will do a beacon search everytime and will be the first thing they do as part of their immediate search. Even if they are told no one is wearing a beacon.

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoqpass View Post
    They have
    I know. I was speaking specifically to recco vs. dog. I have used a Recco unit once at a training, vs. working scenarios with dogs (not a handler) so my opinion makes sense in relation to what Bunion posted.

  22. #147
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    Down by the river, Terrace, BC
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    Love me some dog, but that little fella ain't getting to me until it's too late in all likelyhood where I ski.

    Never knew they were so much faster than a person with a beacon though. That's cool.
    I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different.
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  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowaddict91 View Post
    I know. I was speaking specifically to recco vs. dog. I have used a Recco unit once at a training, vs. working scenarios with dogs (not a handler) so my opinion makes sense in relation to what Bunion posted.
    Im not so sure it should be Dog vs Recco, they are two different tools in the toolbox, a dogs goal is to seek out humans preferably live a recco is just a electric device chasing a signal of sorts
    I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.

  24. #149
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    Jul 2011
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    21
    Has there been a report released for this yet?

  25. #150
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    Jan 2019
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    Grammy Jay
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    There are some details on CAIC report but it is just preliminary. I do not expect a full report to end up being published since it happened within a private ski area. The Taos avalanche from last year has even less information on the CAIC report.

    https://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/a...=731&accfm=rep

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