Avalanche Books

[Jonathan S.]

Just finished this book. It was pretty good and I would recommend it, but not in the way I expected. It has a wealth of knowledge about snow science and some good information about human factors, but it just glances over terrain issues. My takeaway from the rest of the book was that relying on the snow science is a fool's gamble. In my novice opinion terrain choices are the #1 most important and only reliable way of avoiding an avalanche. The book says as much but it just spends a page or two on slope angle and anchoring, a paragraph on terrain traps, and calls it a day.

Interesting observation -- thanks for sharing that perspective.
I haven't read the book front-to-back thoroughly since, hmm, whenever the first edition came out.
That first reading motivated me in part to take my Level 2, and then also Level 3.
Tremper made snow science seem so exciting in that first edition!
But ultimately from a individual decisionmaking perspective, I came to agree with your takeaway.
And the focus of formal avy instruction has been increasingly on terrain selection (which is why L1 courses out here rarely really get beyond the Awareness-course level) and human factors, especially with an emphasis on tour planning. (The changes over the years in the AIARE field book are a key manifestation of these changes.)

Quick q though: did you read the new[-ish] 3rd edition of the book that came out in 2018?
(I haven't had the chance yet to compare it to the first two editions.)

[2_1_3]

Field Guide to Snow Crystals by E.R. LaChappelle
The Snowflake by K. Libbrecht

[Jonathan S.]

I have this old list of additional educational resources:
https://avycourse.blogspot.com/2010/...resources.html

[WesternWard]

Interesting observation -- thanks for sharing that perspective.
I haven't read the book front-to-back thoroughly since, hmm, whenever the first edition came out.
That first reading motivated me in part to take my Level 2, and then also Level 3.
Tremper made snow science seem so exciting in that first edition!
But ultimately from a individual decisionmaking perspective, I came to agree with your takeaway.
And the focus of formal avy instruction has been increasingly on terrain selection (which is why L1 courses out here rarely really get beyond the Awareness-course level) and human factors, especially with an emphasis on tour planning. (The changes over the years in the AIARE field book are a key manifestation of these changes.)

Quick q though: did you read the new[-ish] 3rd edition of the book that came out in 2018?
(I haven't had the chance yet to compare it to the first two editions.)

Oops, I guess I read the 2nd edition. But yeah, it seems to me that snow science and weather-based approaches are valuable and useful for professional avalanche forecasting, but not so much for individuals. As Tremper mentions, if you miss a day or two of monitoring conditions then the snowpack is now an unknown variable. As a layman who is trying to monitor conditions and go up on the weekend, it's just not realistic to be in tune to the degree necessary. The extreme example of the sky clearing up for a matter of hours overnight and surface hoar forming is mentioned in the book. And the more I read, the more the idea of a "representative snow pit" seems like a dangerous myth.

The snow science is actually very exciting though! I was flirting with a pet project idea of making a neural network-based predictor for snow stability with input from weather stations and ski patrol data. It would be based on a single mountain resort because there seemed to be good access to continuous quality weather data, results from controlled slide action in given runs with well documented aspects and slope angles, etc. Similar to the snow pit, even if it worked pretty well it would a dangerous tool. I still think there's plenty of merit to snow science and that kind of tool would be useful if it had access to enormous amounts of data.

[Jonathan S.]

[...]As Tremper mentions, if you miss a day or two of monitoring conditions then the snowpack is now an unknown variable.[...]

I remember that passage very well!
I found that statement when I first read it to be both motivating and daunting.
But after I went through the experience of skiing extensively in three different regions (Mt W, Tahoe, Eastern Sierra) that went from non-traditional avy bulletins to standard (I'll leave out the details unless anyone is curious), I found Tremper's statement kind of odd since a standard avy bulletin should be providing those updates for you.
(I still experience it in the PNW in late spring and early summer, but pretty simply to monitor conditions for any new snow, which is really all that matters by then.)

[...]I was flirting with a pet project idea of making a neural network-based predictor for snow stability with input from weather stations and ski patrol data.[...]

I've always wondering whether something like that was possible!
With enough resources, certainly would be, just like meteorological models.
I mean, an avalanche danger rose should be trivial to general as compared to a NOAA hourly weather graph.
Even at a more casual level, a simple model would be helpful for a professional avy forecaster to review, call b.s. on some findings, but then think through exactly *why* the model is wrong, exactly *what* factors it is missing, etc.
Or with the weather, multiple models would be run, then the fx'er would choose the model that seems to provide the best fit for the current patterns.

[old goat]

Wall of White by Jennifer Woodlief, about the 1982 Alpine Meadows avalanche that killed 7 people in a base building and the parking lot. Anna Conrad survived being buried for 5 days in a space under a tipped over locker.

Buried, by Ken Wylie, about the 2003 Revelstoke avalanche. Wylie was the assistant guide of the group. We lost a good friend in that slide.

[LightRanger]

Buried, by Ken Wylie, about the 2003 Revelstoke avalanche. Wylie was the assistant guide of the group. We lost a good friend in that slide.

There's a woman who lives in Nevada City who was in that group. She's a hospice nurse and took care of my grandpa when he died in 2015. We chatted about it a bit when she was there checking on him. Can't remember the name. Super great woman (as most hospice people are).

[bodywhomper]

i spoke to her ^^ a few years ago. That incident weighs heavy on her. I'm guessing old goat may know her.

I've talked to two that patrolled alpine meadows on that fateful day. One, who was lead instructor of an avi class that I took, did not want to talk about the alpine meadowd incident. The other will very openly discuss it. The second says that he will never forget the feeling of when a probe gets a positive strike.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using TGR Forums mobile app

[homemadesalsa]

The snow science is actually very exciting though! I was flirting with a pet project idea of making a neural network-based predictor for snow stability with input from weather stations and ski patrol data. It would be based on a single mountain resort because there seemed to be good access to continuous quality weather data, results from controlled slide action in given runs with well documented aspects and slope angles, etc. Similar to the snow pit, even if it worked pretty well it would a dangerous tool. I still think there's plenty of merit to snow science and that kind of tool would be useful if it had access to enormous amounts of data.

This is similar to work that Laura Maguire is doing on cognitive understanding of snowpack. PM me to contact her, or google her name and those terms.

Sent from my SM-A600A using Tapatalk

[old goat]

i spoke to her ^^ a few years ago. That incident weighs heavy on her. I'm guessing old goat may know her.


Sent from my SPH-L710 using TGR Forums mobile app

I'm afraid I don't.

[PeachesNCream]

Ended up ordering Snow Sense and Avalanche Essentials. Seems like popular choices and a good starting spot. Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll keep referring back to this on future reads.

[AlexC]

I've always wondering whether something like that was possible!
With enough resources, certainly would be, just like meteorological models.
I mean, an avalanche danger rose should be trivial to general as compared to a NOAA hourly weather graph.
Even at a more casual level, a simple model would be helpful for a professional avy forecaster to review, call b.s. on some findings, but then think through exactly *why* the model is wrong, exactly *what* factors it is missing, etc.
Or with the weather, multiple models would be run, then the fx'er would choose the model that seems to provide the best fit for the current patterns.

This is being worked on: https://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-sci...em.php?id=2448
and https://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-sci...em.php?id=2722

[ddraver]

Different from a book but I'm quietly going to mention the swiss SLF site - https://www.slf.ch/en/avalanche-bulletin-and-snow-situation/about-the-avalanche-bulletin/interpretation-guide.html - which has a wealth of information on avalanches. Some of it not too easy to navigate around and (obvs) sometimes somewhat Swiss focused. I found it more useful after reading the Tremper book though. I'm sure other examples are available.

I was recommended the Tremper book and read it regularly. As I used to be a geologist there is a lot of cross over in concepts with snow science.

I think the guys above are right though that without full-on tuition the biggest takeaways are to read and work out how the avalanche forecast applies to your plans and then make sure to keep an eye on terrain above and below you. Can I honestly make an assessment of the stability of a slope? No, If it did slide, could I survive? Yes...

This gets easier if you live in resort but the next thing is to work out ways of tracking the snowpack when you're doing your day job. I drive transfers so, for example, Is it still icy n the corner that always melts first, am I being blown off the road to the left or the right - how did that translate into the mountains last time? etc.

[Jonathan S.]

This is being worked on: https://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-sci...em.php?id=2448
and https://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-sci...em.php?id=2722

Cool, thx!

[0oMtnRidero0]

I love this book...doesn't get much better for calling out the Mountain Tribe for all their weird ego bullshit.

Autonomy, Mastery, and Purpose in the Avalanche Patch by Brue Kay

https://avalanchepatch.com/

[Bronic]

I love this book...doesn't get much better for calling out the Mountain Tribe for all their weird ego bullshit.

Autonomy, Mastery, and Purpose in the Avalanche Patch by Brue Kay

https://avalanchepatch.com/

This looks great, and I look forward to reading it. Thanks for sharing

[homemadesalsa]

Please don't forget about our erstwhile journal The Avalanche Review.

https://www.americanavalancheassociation.org/tar

[Bunion 2020]

^^^ Some of the best current affairs on the subject available.

[~mikey b]

If you can find it....Montgomery Atwater= Real Avalanche Hunter
Attachment 308771

here’s a copy for about $80 shipped to US from the UK

https://biblio.com.au/book/avalanche...m/d/1028852108




this is another one you want

[whipski]

My first avy book. My how the science and nomenclature has evolved.

[Hacksaw]

These are the two best "text books," on snow and avalanches.

[~mikey b]

here’s a copy for about $80 shipped to US from the UK

https://biblio.com.au/book/avalanche...m/d/1028852108




this is another one you want

I've got an extra copy of this.

SOLD

[~mikey b]

and I came across this - not so easy to find


Atwater's USDA FS Avalanche Handbook

[~mikey b]

scored these from the Harvard Book Store - they will print and bind digitized copies available through the google - reasonably priced

[xksrx]

Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums