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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
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    13

    RESORT UPHILL SKIING A RIGHT OR PRIVILEGE?

    Some resorts are starting to charge for uphill passes. It makes sense that the dirty greedy capitalistic resort owners want more money, OR more realistically that they think someone should pay for using an area they have spent resources on keeping safe, groomed, marked, etc.

    https://www.wildsnow.com/27319/resor...-or-privilege/

    I'm just happy my mountain keeps it free for now.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Hell Track
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    I'm pretty sure that the point of charging a fee is primarily to make the skier a paying customer, and therefore subject to various skier safety laws (that vary from state to state). The pass they pay for has the normal waiver of liability that you find on any other day ticket / season pass. It goes a long way towards limiting the resort's liability.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    at least here in UT where basically no resort allows uphill access I think folks are a lot more receptive to the idea of paying... the article makes good points too

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
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    13
    I agree. I've had to sign waivers at a minimum to travel uphill which covers that as well. It could be difficult to manage if people are only using it before operating hours and get off the mountain before anyone but the cat operators can interact with them.

    Speaking of, what kind of visibility do those operators have anyways?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    inpdx
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    nominal fee is perfectly reasonable (altho not on top of a season pass)
    it is managed terrain & work goes into keeping it safe & groomed
    (not to mention maintenance of developed facilities: parking & potties or even warm lodges)

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Definitely a privilege

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Seattle
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    662
    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    nominal fee is perfectly reasonable (altho not on top of a season pass)
    it is managed terrain & work goes into keeping it safe & groomed
    (not to mention maintenance of developed facilities: parking & potties or even warm lodges)
    Yes, if you shit in the bathroom I pay to clean and park in the parking lot I pay to clear then I can charge you a fee.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    In the swamp
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    Nominal fee (like ABasin) no biggie; big fee like Eldora sucks.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    Teton Village
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    Getting some popcorn. This will likely be a long, highly contested thread.

    There are all sorts of issues.

    Uphill during lift hours?
    People frequently bring dogs.
    On a powder day, Snow King is all tracked out two hours before the lifts open.

    What about people paying for a downhill pass?
    Should they have a reasonable expectation of some powder turns or are they chumps for riding the lifts?
    Ski Shop - Basement of the Hostel



    Do not tell fish stories where the people know you; but particularly, don't tell them where they know the fish.

    Mark Twain

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    SLC
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiing-in-jackson View Post
    Getting some popcorn. This will likely be a long, highly contested thread.

    There are all sorts of issues.

    Uphill during lift hours?
    People frequently bring dogs.
    On a powder day, Snow King is all tracked out two hours before the lifts open.

    What about people paying for a downhill pass?
    Should they have a reasonable expectation of some powder turns or are they chumps for riding the lifts?
    Most of the areas that I know that do allow uphill have restrictions like "only in this/these area/s," "only as high as such-and-such," "no uphill when avy control is happening," etc and many have downhill restrictions too (nothing freshly groomed) ... I realize the situation at Snow King is quite different but the context there is also quite different. It seems like most of those problems could be solved by limiting uphill (and the subsequent downhill) to certain areas of the mountain / certain times though. Dogs IMO not during operating hours (if at all), and I love skiing with my dog, but I'm not trying to get her decapitated by some drunk texan either...

    Edit: to summarize, of all the proponents of uphill inbounds policies I know (including myself) I've never heard anyone seriously push for "I should be able to skin/ski the entire mountain at all times without regard for resort operations," (though apparently this is not uncommon??) so I dunno how controversial any compromise would really end up being. To me anyway, lol

    Realistically charging/allowing or not is just a question of whether there's enough demand for the resort to do anything about it, as it's pretty clearly not a "right" places with the special use permit.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    Teton Village
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    There was a physician in town that got escorted off the hill and maybe arrested a few times for challenging the no uphill travel policy at JHMR.

    Now passed away, Dr. Fleck always made for good newspaper stories with his numerous challenges to no-uphill policy. I was on AV while he was skinning up Tewinott Gully. He was in a heated argument with deputies. It was great. He was a really good climber back in the day, so I always thought he had the proper mojo to conduct the argument.
    Ski Shop - Basement of the Hostel



    Do not tell fish stories where the people know you; but particularly, don't tell them where they know the fish.

    Mark Twain

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
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    Where the north wind blows
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    783
    Ski areas should look at uphill traffic in the same light as nordic areas and charge accordingly. If, as a ski area you charge for uphill, then you should also provide safe and dedicated uphill routes separate from downhill traffic.

  13. #13
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    Oct 2003
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    Ogden
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  14. #14
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    Dec 2005
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    Popular topic today.
    https://www.adventure-journal.com/20...e-paid-trails/

    The closest ski area allows skinning, free and relatively unrestricted,
    https://skisantafe.com/tips-safety/

    Over the years, skinners have caused problems there with all sorts of things: skiing under avy mitigation ops, loose dogs, entering areas closed for snowmaking from above and below crossing hoses and powerlines, clogging narrow runs by skinning side-by-side.

    I’m stunned at how popular it’s become. I went full-moon skinning the other night and saw at least 40 people out and about.
    And I guess that I just don't know

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    In the swamp
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    RESORT UPHILL SKIING A RIGHT OR PRIVILEGE?

    I wish more areas had uphill routes like Snow King instead of just up a downhill trail where you can get nailed by unsuspecting riders.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    the big dirty
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    700
    I think it's worth paying for if it's a good route. Just the right steepness, no blind rolls, not a meandering cat-track, even better if it's a roped off lane.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    SLC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Ski areas should look at uphill traffic in the same light as nordic areas and charge accordingly. If, as a ski area you charge for uphill, then you should also provide safe and dedicated uphill routes separate from downhill traffic.
    This.

    With the amount of terrain that is accessible to someone with a touring setup I can't understand the desire to go to the resort for anything other than quick cardio before or after work. If I were interested in that I'd also be fine paying for it and would expect some form of dedicated itinerary I can follow.
    Insisting that one has the right to skin and ski all over a resort while refusing to pay is asinine.

  18. #18
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    Oct 2008
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    Wenatchee
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    If its private property or leased federal/state land you really dont have a right to be there at all.

    There are all kinds of hazards at a ski area thats not open. Hoses, electrical lines for snow making, cats and snow mobiles. Avalanche hazard etc. People think theyre touring and theyre not. Getting in the way of winch cats and avalanche mitigation. Tearing up fresh groomed runs, they need to sit a bit. The list of stupid and selfish things that inbounds skinners do is endless.

    I think from a pr standpoint that ski hill owners should have well defined policies for uphill travel, routes, times etc., but they arent obligated to do that.

    Edit. If youre just looking for cardio I think theyre plenty of other options. If youre worried about avalanches maybe its a good day to ride the lifts or go meadow skipping or Nordic

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
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    6,209
    It is fucking stupid...backcountry skiing with out the backcountry. That said, we all got a right to be stupid. At Winter Park, it is getting out of hand. The uphillers have so sense of self preservation, right up the middle of open trails around fast skiers. They are a joke. I saw a guy in a dicksuit and rando racing gear sideslipping Sleeper with his poles in one hand 'cause he couldn't ski. There are so many places that you could put a ski track in the trees, why not do that. Downhill ski areas are for downhill skiing, the circus side show is bad enough with tubing parks, snow bikes and other I can't skiers. You know what is fun...cross country skiing.

  20. #20
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    Oct 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    It is fucking stupid...backcountry skiing with out the backcountry. That said, we all got a right to be stupid. At Winter Park, it is getting out of hand. The uphillers have so sense of self preservation, right up the middle of open trails around fast skiers. They are a joke. I saw a guy in a dicksuit and rando racing gear sideslipping Sleeper with his poles in one hand 'cause he couldn't ski. There are so many places that you could put a ski track in the trees, why not do that. Downhill ski areas are for downhill skiing, the circus side show is bad enough with tubing parks, snow bikes and other I can't skiers. You know what is fun...cross country skiing.
    This seems fairly typical, many skin up and realize they cant comfortably ski down the ungroomed snow so they tear up fresh groomers. It might not be important to me or most here, but lots of people pay good money for nice groomed runs.

  21. #21
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    Nov 2002
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    6,209
    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    This seems fairly typical, many skin up and realize they can’t comfortably ski down the ungroomed snow so they tear up fresh groomers. It might not be important to me or most here, but lots of people pay good money for nice groomed runs.
    No...no...I'm talking about at 1pm. I have no idea what goes on at the ski area when the lifts ain't running cause...wait for it...I go to ride the lifts. I do kind of understand that there are some places where the ski area is the only terrain safe from avalanches that you can practice your uphill technique. That does not apply in the Fraser Valley. If you want to learn some skin-fu, the groomer ain't the place. It is just something some Front Rangers do for some reason I will never understand. I've said it before, if you want to get good at skinning, go get a NNN BC fish scales set up.

  22. #22
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    Oct 2003
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    Ogden
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    I did it a few times one year when I was trying to get some ski fitness for a trip and Ogden had a terrible low elevation snowpack, so nowhere close for before/after work skinning. It got very boring, very quick.

    That being said, apparently it's huge, up to a hundred people on some days. I've been told that most of them have never been in the backcountry and have no intention of it.

  23. #23
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    Nov 2014
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    SLC
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    Quote Originally Posted by zion zig zag View Post
    I did it a few times one year when I was trying to get some ski fitness for a trip and Ogden had a terrible low elevation snowpack, so nowhere close for before/after work skinning. It got very boring, very quick.
    This is the only time I ever do it... early season like November (usually before the resort is open) when there is literally nowhere else, and late June, for the same reason. Different strokes, but I'd just rather ski than run or bike if there's any such option.

    I think letting people uphill during operating hours is insane, I'd be mad too. I'm not so worried about "preserving groomers" nor am I sure how a handful of tracks "ruins" a groomer...

  24. #24
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    Oct 2008
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    I see these people typically in off hours when I go to tour outside the ski area. I use the parking lot because its good higher elevation access. I know what youre talking about during open hours too. People ski touring up groomed runs and then skiing down groomers or tracked out terrain. Thats a head scratcher.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by zion zig zag View Post
    That being said, apparently it's huge, up to a hundred people on some days. I've been told that most of them have never been in the backcountry and have no intention of it.
    and god bless them for that

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