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  1. #1
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    Duke PT hole pattern?

    Does anybody yet have even the slightest clue if the new Duke PT will have a hole pattern that will overlap fully, or partially, with any other clamps?

  2. #2
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    heel looks like it could probably be matching Jester/Griffon - it would be dumb if they didn't do that. Hard to tell on the toes

  3. #3
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    Well, if it isn't, it wouldn't be the first time they've done something dumb. I wish the the binding manufacturers would all work on standardizing their mount patterns

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thomas View Post
    Well, if it isn't, it wouldn't be the first time they've done something dumb. I wish the the binding manufacturers would all work on standardizing their mount patterns
    That would be like socialism killing the Pivot. Just because of it's inability to comply with the governmental enforced mount pattern. Is freedom overrated or what?? Drop that idea please!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thomas View Post
    Well, if it isn't, it wouldn't be the first time they've done something dumb. I wish the the binding manufacturers would all work on standardizing their mount patterns
    I sincerely hope not. In the large picture no one cares about mount pattern similarity. Just a couple dozen of you nuts on here. Really would just place an unnecessary constraint on binding design. The vast majority of skis are only ever mounted once and those which are remounted are generally for a different boot sole.

    “This binding seems unnecessarily heavy, why is that?”
    “Oh yeah, we could have easily shaved a couple hundred grams off it but we needed to reinforce a few areas to make it work with a certain hole pattern to appease a couple dozen knuckleheads who use inserts. Sorry world.”

  6. #6
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    Relax a little guys. Would make things easier on the shops not having to buy new jigs all the time (thinking of my small, local shop that doesn't sell hundreds of pair a year like EVO, Starthaus, ...) and those of us who change clamps quite a bit. Having done some industrial design work you might be surprised what a little forethought in the initial design criteria can accomplish.

  7. #7
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    Won’t somebody think of the poor, small shops who are forced to buy jigs and then pretty much immediately recoup those costs when customers pay for a few mounts????

  8. #8
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    Yeah, those little shops. Try it with your own $, might change your view of the matter. Especially when those mounts are gratis with a ski purchase....or you don't sell any of those shiny new boutique bindings...or you have forums with threads like "PSA: Mount Your Own Fucking Skis." What I'm saying is that mount pattern interchangeability should be a design goal. If you have actually tried any product design you guys might actually not get so emotional about it and figure out that the seemingly unattainable is actually possible without compromise. Much more complicated things are accomplished everyday.

  9. #9
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    Duke PT hole pattern?

    I pinged an associate in their organization, all I was told is that it will be unique mounting pattern. No surprises there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thomas View Post
    What I'm saying is that mount pattern interchangeability should be a design goal. If you have actually tried any product design you guys might actually not get so emotional about it and figure out that the seemingly unattainable is actually possible without compromise. Much more complicated things are accomplished everyday.
    Well, seeing as how I do have some experience with product design, I’ll add my opinion. The more constraints that are added to the development process creates higher probability of compromise. And, ski bindings are already dealing with a few of those, let alone adding another.

    By you logic, all binding manufactures should choose one mount pattern, and to what end? To support what might be a questionable retail business model? I am all for supporting local (when it makes sense), however in the current world we live in, if you don’t have your business model dialed to the point where binding jigs aren’t a make or break, maybe you shouldn’t be in that line of business.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thomas View Post
    Yeah, those little shops. Try it with your own $, might change your view of the matter. Especially when those mounts are gratis with a ski purchase....or you don't sell any of those shiny new boutique bindings...or you have forums with threads like "PSA: Mount Your Own Fucking Skis." What I'm saying is that mount pattern interchangeability should be a design goal. If you have actually tried any product design you guys might actually not get so emotional about it and figure out that the seemingly unattainable is actually possible without compromise. Much more complicated things are accomplished everyday.
    If brands aligned on hole pattern for all of their bindings, it would completely stifle binding innovation and cause things to look the same. It would be like dictating the pivot location on all full suspension mountain bikes. To get any binding to work a certain way is a huge challenge, especially complicated designs like Shift, Duke PT, etc., and to dictate their hole pattern would completely change how the binding works, skis, and feels on snow. It is far more complicated than you think and will basically never happen in our lifetime.

  11. #11
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    For those unaware -- onenerdykid happens to run the boot program for one of the world largest boot and binding manufacturers.

  12. #12
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    I’d prefer durability, reliability, energy transmission, weight and cost to be design priorities over mount pattern.

    “Hey man, tell me about these two cross over bindings”

    “Well this one is 100g heavier, tends to ice up more and costs an extra $50, but uses the same mount pattern as some other bindings they make”

    Fucking SOLD!


    If we’re gonna talk small shop business model they should selling Joey a new set of skis which would better match up with their new bindings. They should also stop giving away mounts. With MAP pricing for current year ski and online shops dominating the closeout market it’s time to for shops to stop giving away free labor.

  13. #13
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    To be fair it would be easy for a lot of the common alpine bindings to share a hole pattern... Its not like there has really been much innovation in Alpine clamps in the last 30 years... Not that I think it should or would happen.
    a positive attitude will not solve all of your problems, but it may annoy enough people to make it worth the effort

    Formerly Rludes025

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eluder View Post
    To be fair it would be easy for a lot of the common alpine bindings to share a hole pattern... Its not like there has really been much innovation in Alpine clamps in the last 30 years... Not that I think it should or would happen.
    When I first started working at Atomic, I was very surprised to find out just how sensitive racers are to changes in equipment, even in bindings. If you asked Atomic to change the X-20 hole pattern to be the same as the Look PX18, our racers wouldn't go for it at all- they're just used to the feeling of our binding and as soon as the change would be made, they would use the old original binding instead (this happened when we moved away from our own Race 9-18 binding to the X-20). Hole pattern (and number of screws) has a direct effect on the feel of the binding. Same goes for Look if the tables were turned.- they wouldn't do it.

    Outside of racing, let's look at something more TGR-relevant- the STH2 16 and Pivot 18. MAYBE the toe pattern could be aligned but the heels would be impossible- they're just way too different. Each binding has its pros/cons and neither brand wants to lose their point of difference for the sake of aligning on hole pattern. Brand identity will always trump niche compatibility concerns.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by onenerdykid View Post
    Same goes for Look if the tables were turned.- they wouldn't do it.
    I see what you did there.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by onenerdykid View Post
    Outside of racing, let's look at something more TGR-relevant- the STH2 16 and Pivot 18. MAYBE the toe pattern could be aligned but the heels would be impossible- they're just way too different. Each binding has its pros/cons and neither brand wants to lose their point of difference for the sake of aligning on hole pattern. Brand identity will always trump niche compatibility concerns.
    Ok but a Jester and an STH2 could easily be the same... but yeah your last sentence is the one that matters.
    a positive attitude will not solve all of your problems, but it may annoy enough people to make it worth the effort

    Formerly Rludes025

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eluder View Post
    Ok but a Jester and an STH2 could easily be the same... but yeah your last sentence is the one that matters.
    with the emphasis on niche. I think the vast majority of consumers never ever remounts a ski.

  18. #18
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    My stock order of Duke PT's just arrived plus the PT jig.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The PT heel has the same L80mm x W32mm pattern as the Jester/Griffon but the metal insert worm drive track is a lot longer to give the greatly increased length adjustment.

    The PT toe has a L46mm x W38mm pattern compared to the L31mm x W36mm of the Jester/Griffon.

    Here's the PT mount in red alongside a Jester/Griffon mount in black, both at 300mm bsl and both mounted on the line. The heel holes are identical. The PT's toe locations straddle the rear toe locations of the Jester/Griffon by 15mm and 16mm so there's more than enough room for a conventional mount and sufficient room for a QK/BF mount even if the original mount was with inserts.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It's a pity that there's 2mm difference in the mounting width at the toe but if you wanted to use one of the pairs of Jester/Griffon holes then you'd end up +15mm or -16mm off the mounting line (assuming the same bsl) so very few will want to do that. But if you did want to do it (ie when there's a difference in bsl) then if you mounting the PT toe with inserts then the insert would enclose an original conventional mount and you'd be good to go.

    So kudos to Marker for giving Jester/Griffon users the ability to upgrade their bindings without incurring any mounting hassle.

    If anyone wants me to check the mounting hole compatibility with a different binding then advise the make/model/bsl of the existing mount plus the bsl for the Duke mount (if different) and I'll overlay the jigs to check.
    Last edited by Spyderjon; 08-06-2020 at 09:12 AM.

  19. #19
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    And here's the QK/BF insert screw specs for the PT:

    Front toe: 4no. 12mm countersunk flat heads (for 5.5mm of thread protrusion)
    Rear toe: 4no. 12mm countersunk flat heads (for 5.5mm of thread protrusion)
    Heels: 8no. 10mm countersunk flat heads. This length gives 4.5mm of thread protrusion which could be marginal. Using a 12mm screw risks the screw bottoming out in the insert so but if the inserts are recessed a bit then they could work. Best to do some careful measuring and be prepared to shorten the 12mm screws down a bit. An 11mm screw would be perfect but that's not a standard size.

  20. #20
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    Nice. As usual, Jon from Nottingham ends the speculation with graphic evidence!

  21. #21
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    FWIW that is also the same toe mount pattern as a kingpin. Probably pretty close to same mount location, I’d think.

    I only know this as a used pair of kp’s sheared off on me and am playing binding tetris this summer. Personally, the idea of replacing kps with another marker binding with even more plastic is hardly appealing


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by onenerdykid View Post
    When I first started working at Atomic, I was very surprised to find out just how sensitive racers are to changes in equipment, even in bindings. If you asked Atomic to change the X-20 hole pattern to be the same as the Look PX18, our racers wouldn't go for it at all- they're just used to the feeling of our binding and as soon as the change would be made, they would use the old original binding instead (this happened when we moved away from our own Race 9-18 binding to the X-20). Hole pattern (and number of screws) has a direct effect on the feel of the binding. Same goes for Look if the tables were turned.- they wouldn't do it.

    Outside of racing, let's look at something more TGR-relevant- the STH2 16 and Pivot 18. MAYBE the toe pattern could be aligned but the heels would be impossible- they're just way too different. Each binding has its pros/cons and neither brand wants to lose their point of difference for the sake of aligning on hole pattern. Brand identity will always trump niche compatibility concerns.
    This is why Marcel still raced Markers on his GS skis.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs View Post
    This is why Marcel still raced Markers on his GS skis.
    Hirscher ran Atomic bindings for several years, then switched to Marker in 2014. There was some complaining (notably by Carlo Janka) that Atomic had not allowed him to run the same setup, but well, it was Hirscher. The results pretty much speak for themselves. What I never understood was how Hermann Maier managed to stay in those Atomic-branded ESS bindings . . .

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    Hirscher ran Atomic bindings for several years, then switched to Marker in 2014. There was some complaining (notably by Carlo Janka) that Atomic had not allowed him to run the same setup, but well, it was Hirscher. The results pretty much speak for themselves. What I never understood was how Hermann Maier managed to stay in those Atomic-branded ESS bindings . . .
    He straight up skied the M20 on all his GS skis. They just painted them black.
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    That photo was during the 2014/15 WC season.

    He used Markers at the 2015 World Championships.
    His GS skis that were stolen in Alta Badia in the 2015-16 WC Season had Markers
    I know for a fact he used Markers in the 2016 and the 2018 season.
    He still used Markers in 2019 at the World Championships, even though Atomic had "developed" a new binding to compare to the Markers. Most of the top athletes were skiing these Atomics for the 2019 season.
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    This Photo is from the 2019 World Championships.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs View Post
    He straight up skied the M20 on all his GS skis. They just painted them black.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    That photo was during the 2014/15 WC season.

    He used Markers at the 2015 World Championships.
    His GS skis that were stolen in Alta Badia in the 2015-16 WC Season had Markers
    I know for a fact he used Markers in the 2016 and the 2018 season.
    He still used Markers in 2019 at the World Championships, even though Atomic had "developed" a new binding to compare to the Markers. Most of the top athletes were skiing these Atomics for the 2019 season.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    From 2010-2014? The TLT6M in the background dates that photo as winter 2013-2014 at the earliest. I seem to remember him showing up at Sölden in 2014 with the Markers and people freaked out.

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