When to upgrade beacon

[milestogo]

When you say "original Mammut Barryvox" which one do you mean exactly?
The Barryvox name has been around since at least the 1960s. I'm assuming yours isn't that old. https://beaconreviews.com/Specs_BarryvoxVS68.php

If it has less than 3 antennas (Barryvox VS2000, Opto3000, etc.), in my opinion it is obsolete. Use it as a target beacon for practicing and nothing more. If it's a Pulse or an Element, those are still good beacons and I don't think need to be upgraded yet if they're still in good working order.

this one:


Sounds like a new one is in order! Thx

[Jonathan S.]

this one:


Sounds like a new one is in order! Thx

One of my personal favorites at the time!
Although its time has now passed.

[milestogo]

One of my personal favorites at the time!
Although its time has now passed.

Thanks for chiming in!

[alfajores]

When you say "original Mammut Barryvox" which one do you mean exactly?
The Barryvox name has been around since at least the 1960s. I'm assuming yours isn't that old. https://beaconreviews.com/Specs_BarryvoxVS68.php

If it has less than 3 antennas (Barryvox VS2000, Opto3000, etc.), in my opinion it is obsolete. Use it as a target beacon for practicing and nothing more. If it's a Pulse or an Element, those are still good beacons and I don't think need to be upgraded yet if they're still in good working order.

That was my thought too. I would definitely get a new beacon if you have the VS2000 or other. The Pulse and Element are still great beacons and I trust folks visiting to use that to save me even if they are only fluent with a BD or BCA type beacon. That said, the new Mammut Barryvox and S are wildly better beacons. I have peer pressured all my friends to get one when they are due for a purchase and no one has regretted it. The range and processing speed is mind boggling! I can typically complete a 100m single burial course in less than 50 seconds and multiburial flag (2 person) exercise in less than 90 seconds. I have watched BCA beacons completely fold even in the hands of experienced users and I don't know if I will be able to trust Pieps/BD on beacons for a couple more generations. Their mode mechanism is flawed in design and I haven't been convinced that the new units wont degrade to similar failures as the previous generation (over time).

That said, if you are coming to Colorado, Neptune in Boulder and many other shops could check your beacon if you schedule it in advance. I think Cripple Creek can also do it, but call ahead and get your meeting scheduled. Most shops only have 1 person that knows how to check frequency drift and upgrade software.

[Spats]

this one:


Sounds like a new one is in order! Thx

Yes. That generation is a 2-antenna beacon, not 3-antenna.
A 3-antenna beacon will be much faster to search with.

I still have mine (exactly like the picture), and it still works and tests perfectly with no drift...but it's now the "buried guy" in beacon drills and for testing newer beacons.

[alfajores]

On a side note, has anyone used a Baofeng radio or similar as a body? I think that transmitting on that channel would be questionable, but I have read through the law and it might qualify as emergency response training which can surpass the need for a HAM license. Seems like a low cost way to set up good multi burial situations and maybe even change wattage to help with burial depth simulations for weak versus strong signals.

Alternate, anyone use an SMR type computer radio to analyze your beacon signal and track the strength and drift over time? Maybe in a few projects from now I will look into this and offer up a service for locals to track their beacon.

[summit]

On a side note, has anyone used a Baofeng radio or similar as a body? I think that transmitting on that channel would be questionable, but I have read through the law and it might qualify as emergency response training which can surpass the need for a HAM license. Seems like a low cost way to set up good multi burial situations and maybe even change wattage to help with burial depth simulations for weak versus strong signals.

Alternate, anyone use an SMR type computer radio to analyze your beacon signal and track the strength and drift over time? Maybe in a few projects from now I will look into this and offer up a service for locals to track their beacon.

I'm not really sure what you are talking about but here goes...

First, no HT I can think of transmits in the MF band particularly low MF. Very few out there even transmit on HF. Almost everything on the market is VHF/UHF particularly your Baefang.

Second, self-determined training is absolutely not an FCC acceptable "emergency" exception to transmit without a license on a shitty leaky Chinesium radio non-type certified for the band. Nobody cares about FRS/GMRS freqs, but start leaking all over other bands and a bored boomer will DF you.

Third, frequency drift on modern beacons is negligible due to the way our modern beacons generate their RF oscillation. Freq drift was a problem with older beacons especially due to crystal oscillators going "out of tune." That said, Peips DSP Pros had a frequency tester built in as it came from the era when the problem was known, digital tech allowed the feature, and large amounts of older beacons were still out there (F1s, M1s, M2s, Peips 457s, etc). JShefftz and Steve Achelius did testing: https://beaconreviews.com/frequency.php Range testing is a more than adequate proxy for antenna and other issues, and if an issue is identified, back to the manufacturer.

[Jonathan S.]

^ Thanks for beating me to it (and saving me the effort, hah)!

All I have to add is:

• Transmitting on the long-wavelength avy frequency from a small-housing device is rather complicated. Once an EE prof at the flagship state university here in town asked if some students could borrow a few beacons for a senior project. Sure, but given that he's an EE prof, couldn't he cobble something together from parts at the local Electron Hut? Just so happens that he asked a colleague who is a biggie in antenna design, and his answer was, ugh, just buy an avy beacon! Years earlier I happened to catch this episode that was sort of related to that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_(The_X-Files) ... and based sort of on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sanguine ... real proposal.
• Those old light blue F1 units were notorious for almost inevitable frequency drift. I can't remember though the last time that I -- or anyone else -- found a beacon model that failed the frequency test.

[Spats]

Third, frequency drift on modern beacons is negligible due to the way our modern beacons generate their RF oscillation. Freq drift was a problem with older beacons especially due to crystal oscillators going "out of tune." That said, Peips DSP Pros had a frequency tester built in as it came from the era when the problem was known, digital tech allowed the feature, and large amounts of older beacons were still out there (F1s, M1s, M2s, Peips 457s, etc). JShefftz and Steve Achelius did testing: https://beaconreviews.com/frequency.php Range testing is a more than adequate proxy for antenna and other issues, and if an issue is identified, back to the manufacturer.

Can we all just take a moment to appreciate how much beacons have improved in the last 20 years, how amazing modern 3-antenna digital beacons are, and how much more quickly we can search with them?

I took my Avy 1 class with the classic analog F1. The original 2-antenna Tracker and Barryvox were a revelation because you could simply follow the arrow, instead of having to wave the chassis around and decide, usually in a snowstorm, whether it was getting louder or quieter. (Ortovox responded by adding a digital display to single-antenna electronics, fooling people into thinking they were getting something that wasn't just an F1 dressed up.)
Then the 3 antenna beacons came out -- and instead of following flux lines and worrying about vertical burials and nulls and exactly where to start probing, you could just stomp straight in and start probing where the number was smallest.

I've never had to use my beacon to find anyone in an emergency (or needed it for someone to find me), and I aim to keep that unblemished record. But people who have only known 3-antenna digital beacons have no idea how much quicker and easier it is to find a burial now vs. 20 years ago.

Personally, I would feel comfortable around any digital 3-antenna beacon that hasn't been abused and doesn't have known design flaws. At that point, the user's knowledge and training far outweigh any differences between beacons.

[grinch]

Im looking to upgrade my beacon from my old ortovox patroller digital beacon. Im looking at the mammut barryvox s. I see decent prices in euroland but im concerned about the different "w-link" in the eu compared to n america. Im not sure but i think thats for updates of the unit? If i buy one with the euro w-link frequency is that a problem going forward. I think these units can be updated from another unit as well as online?
I'd also consider the new tracker. Maybe there will be black friday sales i could get one at a decent price in n america?

Sent from my SM-A536W using TGR Forums mobile app

[Jonathan S.]

Im looking to upgrade my beacon from my old ortovox patroller digital beacon. Im looking at the mammut barryvox s. I see decent prices in euroland but im concerned about the different "w-link" in the eu compared to n america. Im not sure but i think thats for updates of the unit? If i buy one with the euro w-link frequency is that a problem going forward. I think these units can be updated from another unit as well as online?
I'd also consider the new tracker. Maybe there will be black friday sales i could get one at a decent price in n america?

Sent from my SM-A536W using TGR Forums mobile app

When the Pulse was introduced, the W Link featured prominently in the marking, but the secondary frequency was useful only for indicating that another buried Pulse unit (or some ARVA models) was detecting minute vibrations (not really HRM) from a victim.

But like you said, with the current models, one unit can update another, which is a nifty trick.
That must mean the updater and the updatee would have to be on the same frequency.
IIRC a European Pulse was switchable between the two different W Link frequencies. Whereas a North American Pulse had to be switched by a dealer or service center to the European frequency.
Advise checking into the status with the current models on that.
(I would see what my own Barryvox S can do, and I just happen to have it at my side as I await my return flight, but just to be on the safe side I'd rather not arouse TSA's suspicions with any odd electronic devices -- probably that and my inReach caused a long inspection on the xray machine!)

[grinch]

When the Pulse was introduced, the W Link featured prominently in the marking, but the secondary frequency was useful only for indicating that another buried Pulse unit (or some ARVA models) was detecting minute vibrations (not really HRM) from a victim.

But like you said, with the current models, one unit can update another, which is a nifty trick.
That must mean the updater and the updatee would have to be on the same frequency.
IIRC a European Pulse was switchable between the two different W Link frequencies. Whereas a North American Pulse had to be switched by a dealer or service center to the European frequency.
Advise checking into the status with the current models on that.
(I would see what my own Barryvox S can do, and I just happen to have it at my side as I await my return flight, but just to be on the safe side I'd rather not arouse TSA's suspicions with any odd electronic devices -- probably that and my inReach caused a long inspection on the xray machine!)

Haa, thanks. Ya good plan on not checking in the airport.
Ill have to message them(telemark pyranese) to see if they can change that for the NA frequency.
They have a disclaimer that their beacons for sale have the euro frequency. They may not switch it or be able to

Sent from my SM-A536W using TGR Forums mobile app

[summit]

I've never had any attention paid to my inreach or beacon in my carry on. HUGE CAUTION on taking an InReach or similar to certain foreign countries where it is criminal to possess sat messaging devices, such as India.

[ey_allen]

I just upgraded to a Barryvox thanks to this thread, and the user manual seems to indicate that a user can't change the frequencies, but no idea about a dealer or Mammut themselves. I'm in the US if that matters.

[alfajores]

I've never had any attention paid to my InReach or beacon in my carry on. HUGE CAUTION on taking an InReach or similar to certain foreign countries where it is criminal to possess sat messaging devices, such as India.

True story. It ruined my trip to India. I was on the last trip to India before the State Department updated their website regarding this and the product website for the service still stated that it was fine. Huge mistake. I also recognize that to this date, India wont tell you it is a problem to have until they see one. Then off to the precinct for questioning and then an appearance in front of a judge.

If you ever get in this situation in India, DM me immediately.

[alfajores]

Im looking at the mammut barryvox s. I see decent prices in euroland but im concerned about the different "w-link" in the eu compared to n america. Im not sure but i think thats for updates of the unit? If i buy one with the euro w-link frequency is that a problem going forward. I think these units can be updated from another unit as well as online?
Sent from my SM-A536W using TGR Forums mobile app

Side note, we were out playing with a small pile of Barryvox S and previous gen Pulse Barryvox this weekend and could not get any to trigger the person+heart logo to indicate they could sense movement. We checked all settings and checked the manual. Nothing was amiss.

Any thoughts?

[alfajores]

First, no HT I can think of transmits in the MF band particularly low MF. Very few out there even transmit on HF. Almost everything on the market is VHF/UHF particularly your Baefang.

Thanks! We set up a radio with tri-band and these frequency ranges and listened and heard dopplar sounds from our beacons. Pretty interesting. We did not Tx, but it was a cool experiment.

Second, self-determined training is absolutely not an FCC acceptable "emergency" exception to transmit without a license on a shitty leaky Chinesium radio non-type certified for the band. Nobody cares about FRS/GMRS freqs, but start leaking all over other bands and a bored boomer will DF you.

True. Just curious how this could evolve and whether there is a thoughtful way to use one for testing purposes. As the tech improves and becomes cheaper, there will be a breaking point at some time where an Ortovox-like beacon course could be set up pretty easily with off-the-shelf radios. The legality of it is another situation and a huge consideration. Definitely a thought experiment and not a plan.

Third, frequency drift on modern beacons is negligible due to the way our modern beacons generate their RF oscillation. [....] Range testing is a more than adequate proxy for antenna and other issues, and if an issue is identified, back to the manufacturer.

Great point. We did some comparisons on the older Mammut Pulse and the Barryvox S on their signal and path to think about some of the considerations the new, more powerful radio Tx's have on the Rx beacons ability to locate them. There are some interesting quirks when we control for battery, orientation, and position with the di-pole path that the Rx beacon processes. We are going to think about this a little more with some thoughts on interference and obstructions.
Most of my practice has been finding older beacons or perhaps some lower-range beacons like BCA tracker 2/3 and Pieps DPS Sport with the Pulse and Barryvox S. In running searches Barryvox S to same, we noticed some very slight differences in how consistently it would follow flux lines in repeat tests. Nothing to completely throw off a search, don't get me wrong, but the perhaps longer/wider lines resulted in more movement of the directional arrow.

[Cocximus]

RE India, there's gonna be a lot of people booked when they discover the new iPhone satellite capability.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[~mikey b]

grinch

check your PMs

[cat in january]

RE India, there's gonna be a lot of people booked when they discover the new iPhone satellite capability.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

That is an interesting question. Seems to not be resolved based on a thirty second search and likely not functional in India at this time.

https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/te...le65885356.ece

Alfajores since you may not be up checking your tgr messages at the time one of us appears before the judge, what is the course of action?

[grinch]

I just upgraded to a Barryvox thanks to this thread, and the user manual seems to indicate that a user can't change the frequencies, but no idea about a dealer or Mammut themselves. I'm in the US if that matters.

The euro store returned my email. They cant change them

Side note, we were out playing with a small pile of Barryvox S and previous gen Pulse Barryvox this weekend and could not get any to trigger the person+heart logo to indicate they could sense movement. We checked all settings and checked the manual. Nothing was amiss.

Any thoughts?

Im not sure. Is that what the w-link function is for?

grinch

check your PMs

Thanks buddy. Much appreciated. Im going to pm you back shortly

Sent from my SM-A536W using TGR Forums mobile app

[alfajores]

RE India, there's gonna be a lot of people booked when they discover the new iPhone satellite capability.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Yeah! Though, it doesn't currently work outside NA, so it shouldn't be a true problem.

T-Mobile customers on the other hand... https://www.t-mobile.com/news/un-car...nd-with-spacex

[~mikey b]

Thanks buddy. Much appreciated. Im going to pm you back shortly

[alfajores]

That is an interesting question. Seems to not be resolved based on a thirty second search and likely not functional in India at this time.

https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/te...le65885356.ece

Alfajores since you may not be up checking your tgr messages at the time one of us appears before the judge, what is the course of action?

I have an attorney that can help. I have my legal decision that can be submitted and used as precedent. The process is a complete disaster and I was very close to getting off at the airport but my connection was busy at a wedding and wasn't able to pull a string in time. They called the precinct and I got driven away from the airport before I could get cleared. My friend's family is related to the guy that built the new New Delhi airport and he is close to the head of airport security. Unfortunately, he was still occupied with the wedding we were flying to after our adventures.

Side note, I work for the US 'Gobernment' and it didn't cause me to lose any privileges nor stop me from getting a new role with higher required security. They definitely printed and mugshotted me. I will not be returning to India in the next 30 years.

[alfajores]

That said, to get it back to the topic of the thread, when they ask you if your avy beacon is a satellite phone, tell then no. No jokes, just no. Same with your iPhone 14 Pro, or anything that works with satellites. Just tell them you use it for storage. I wouldn't even bring a GPS device to India. Nothing with maps. Only use your iPhone there. It will cause you to miss your flight.

For those that don't understand why, the Mumbai attacks were staged and coordinated over satellite communications because India doesn't have a method to monitor and "NSA" those systems. This is the rationale that China, Cuba, North Korea, etc do not allow you to use those devices. The list is growing.