Pinion drive

[SB]

Mmmmm, interdasting.

[toast2266]

I've spent a fair amount of time on one. While gearboxes may have a future (shimano just filled a patent for their own version), the pinion has a lot of fairly significant downsides. Those things have been around for a while now, and there's a reason they haven't really caught on.

[plugboots]

I'm a hudge belt drive fan, so I came within a hair of having my last bike made with a pinion. Prolly the next one will be pinion or it's ilk.

[Boissal]

Damn, 600% range on a 12-speed, pretty impressive. No shifting under load seems like a deal breaker though. Seems like the Shimano 13-speed box from the patent remedies that part.

[Iowagriz]

I'd definitely consider a Pinion for a touring/bikepacking ride. Not so much for actual MTB and shifting under load. I might be able to train myself to let off for shifts, but not likely.

[plugboots]

I'd definitely consider a Pinion for a touring/bikepacking ride. Not so much for actual MTB and shifting under load. I might be able to train myself to let off for shifts, but not likely.

I already kinda do this. I don't stop pedaling completely, but hesitate and/or ease up. I started long ago, so I know the learning curve for doing a quick stop-shift would be short.

[Dantheman]

Damn, 600% range on a 12-speed, pretty impressive. No shifting under load seems like a deal breaker though. Seems like the Shimano 13-speed box from the patent remedies that part.

Toast's extensive review of the Taniwha Trail is worth reading. It both killed and strengthened my e-lust for a Zerode bike. The Pinion has too many issues still, but the rear suspension performance sounds nothing short of amazing. We're talking coil-sprung DH bike-level performance from a 140 mm trail bike. I hadn't heard that Shimano was working on their own gearbox, but hopefully they are pouring huge sums of money into it, will fix the Pinion's problems, and mass gearbox adoption will follow.

[Iowagriz]

I already kinda do this. I don't stop pedaling completely, but hesitate and/or ease up. I started long ago, so I know the learning curve for doing a quick stop-shift would be short.

Good point, if you shift smoothly now, you probably let off the power for a moment each time.

[Boissal]

Toast's extensive review of the Taniwha Trail is worth reading. It both killed and strengthened my e-lust for a Zerode bike. The Pinion has too many issues still, but the rear suspension performance sounds nothing short of amazing. We're talking coil-sprung DH bike-level performance from a 140 mm trail bike. I hadn't heard that Shimano was working on their own gearbox, but hopefully they are pouring huge sums of money into it, will fix the Pinion's problems, and mass gearbox adoption will follow.

I watched a video discussing their patent, apparently it's very detailed, includes new lubrication systems and describes frame integration. All parts are already available and easy to mass produce. The guy was making the argument that they have so much sway over the biking world that they can more or less compel brands to design frames that will take their new tranny and force widespread adoption that way. Think Windows OS pre-loaded in 90% of PCs type of adoption.

[plugboots]

Good point, if you shift smoothly now, you probably let off the power for a moment each time.

I could put a version of this conversation in the wife thread.
I started because I think a long time ago I rammed the chain behind the biggest cog, and when pulling it out, I bent some shit, so I was super careful shifting. The technique kinda stuck.

[robnow]

Toast's extensive review of the Taniwha Trail is worth reading. It both killed and strengthened my e-lust for a Zerode bike.

Not to mention the geometry on the new Katipo looks really good.

[SB]

That would be sweet if the shimano version fixed the downsides.

[jono]

I've been riding a C1.12-equipped bike as my DD for a couple of years.

Tl/dr: I like it. It's not perfect, but the upsides are significant if you don't get hung up on the weight.

Sorry for the wall of text....

Plugboots is correct that learning to pause when shifting is easy, particularly because it doesn't need to be a long pause. The shifts happen under spring-load (whether actual springs, or a little cable stretch depends on the shift), so as soon as the shift force overcomes the friction (usually a function of torque) the shift happens instantaneously.

There is a slight "gap" between gears when downshifting with the Pinion such that if you want to shift more than one gear you only need to initiate the first shift and unless you pause at the shifter the next gears happen effortlessly before the internal freewheels are fully re-engaged. That gap doesn't happen on upshifts and is between unnoticeable and welcome if your shifts happen at BDC. I find it all easier than moving my butt up and down with the dropper while pedaling.

The system isn't perfect, but functionally I like the ability to shift without pedaling more than I dislike any need to drop torque to shift. I actually just push hard on the pedal and as it reaches bottom dead center that's when I grab the shift. So for one pedal stroke I just practice not "pedaling circles" and it works out fine. If the shift took more time, like it does with a derailleur, that technique wouldn't work so well, but since it's instantaneous you just have to coordinate your hand movement. I can make downshifts during rock crawl moves at Gooseberry Mesa that I would not attempt with a derailleur (even though Shimano's newest will probably make most of them, I don't trust the sound it makes at that load and wouldn't want to incur the wear).

I wish the Pinion was lighter, cheaper, more efficient, perfectly sealed (including the shift mechanism), utterly reliable and had one other feature I won't mention. But the one time I had a problem they overnighted me another gearbox, which I switched out in a B&B and got back on the trail the next day. Otherwise it's been nothing but the annual oil change and shifter cables.

(Shimano speculation nixed) 6:1 is pretty addictive. I don't need first gear on more than 5-10% of rides but when I do it's really nice to have.

[jono]

I watched a video discussing their patent, apparently it's very detailed, includes new lubrication systems and describes frame integration. All parts are already available and easy to mass produce. The guy was making the argument that they have so much sway over the biking world that they can more or less compel brands to design frames that will take their new tranny and force widespread adoption that way. Think Windows OS pre-loaded in 90% of PCs type of adoption.

That's not the bikeradar video, is it? That poor guy got seriously trolled. The patent mentioned there is pretty much the opposite of what he thinks. They only claim a better sliding object design and everything else in there is an example of ways they might apply it. But none of those things are protected except in conjunction with their sliding interface. Not to say they won't use it, but I doubt we'll see it on anything that looks like the patent drawings except the cable.

[SB]

[jono]

Yeah, that's it! Here is the (only independent) claim:

What is claimed is : 1 . A sliding component comprising:
a base member; a plated layer including a metallic material, the plated layer being disposed on the base member; and
a lubricant agent including a fatty acid containing a carboxyl group, the lubricant agent contacting the plated layer.

The entire discussion of gearboxes, cables, freewheels and planetary gear hubs is just to give examples of its use. If they break the internet with stuff they've probably tried and rejected...wow.

If you want that Shimano box go ahead and build one--just don't use a fatty acid containing a carboxyl group and you're good to go. But there might be a reason they decided to put it in the public domain by describing it without protecting it.

[Boissal]

That's not the bikeradar video, is it? That poor guy got seriously trolled. The patent mentioned there is pretty much the opposite of what he thinks. They only claim a better sliding object design and everything else in there is an example of ways they might apply it. But none of those things are protected except in conjunction with their sliding interface. Not to say they won't use it, but I doubt we'll see it on anything that looks like the patent drawings except the cable.

Not bike radar, it was from some guy who is currently biking across a continent I think? I'll have to find it again, he had a great explanation of the whole system, potential benefits, downsides, etc...