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  1. #1
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    Boot Liners: Wide feet skinny calves conundrum

    My calves begin at or above where the boot tops end. My (duck) feet are wide by ski boot standards, at about 105mm last.

    I've used Intuition Power Wrap liners (medium volume), and like them a lot, but I do get a bit of fore/aft movement in them, enough that by the forth day in a row of hard skiing, my shins are beat to hell.

    Would a high volume liner be a good move, to reduce or eliminate this? Maybe something a little cushier, like a luxury wrap? I'd give up a little performance if it meant getting more pain free days on long trips. Just wondering if a HV liner is going to have to be sliced and diced in order to accommodate a wider foot, or if it'll mold.

    Or maybe I'm thinking about it wrong. Drop down to 110 or lower boot flex? Use a booster strap? Lot of options.

  2. #2
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    If you got skinny calves I am betting you got skinny/low volume ankles?

    How is the shell fit? take the liner out, with your bare foot touching the front of the shell, see how much room you got behind your heel, it should be 9-14mm, a sharpie felt marker with the squared off base is 15mm for reference

    Even if you got the right size shell maybe the shells are wrong for your foot ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    If you got skinny calves I am betting you got skinny/low volume ankles?

    How is the shell fit?

    Even if you got the right size shell maybe the shells are wrong for your foot ?
    Yep. Skinny ankles, too. Shell is about 12mm behind heel. Had a 6th toe punch.

    They have been pretty good, except for the boot shaft being too roomy.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Get a stiffer, higher volume power wrap.

    Maybe the Plug Wrap.

    If you go softer (ie. Luxury) it will only increase your problem as you will feel the stiff shell as the softer liner flexes into it, particularly at the top of the cuff. Plus the softer liner will pack our more and faster as you ski it.

    I have similar issues, but not wide feet, and I love Intuitions, but pretty much can only ski the HD/Race/Plug density (in both overlap and tongue models). All the others I've tried have been too soft, spongy, and unsupportive, and I can feel the shell as I work the boot. I also run about a 7 mm (5mm to 10mm) shell fit which helps. The less room for movement your foot has, the less movement there is throughout the lower and upper, and the less worked your feet, ankles, and shins get from moving around.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  5. #5
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    what boot?

    I got the same type of foot with a high arch, the Vulcan is my go to AT boot and some Dalbello 4 buckle alpines, both with powerwraps

    If you don't have one yet maybe an insole or foot bed to take up extra space will help, either Sole or Superfeet, IME for my flat feet the Sole work well
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucknau View Post
    My calves begin at or above where the boot tops end. My (duck) feet are wide by ski boot standards, at about 105mm last.

    I've used Intuition Power Wrap liners (medium volume), and like them a lot, but I do get a bit of fore/aft movement in them, enough that by the forth day in a row of hard skiing, my shins are beat to hell.

    Would a high volume liner be a good move, to reduce or eliminate this? Maybe something a little cushier, like a luxury wrap? I'd give up a little performance if it meant getting more pain free days on long trips. Just wondering if a HV liner is going to have to be sliced and diced in order to accommodate a wider foot, or if it'll mold.

    Or maybe I'm thinking about it wrong. Drop down to 110 or lower boot flex? Use a booster strap? Lot of options.
    Start with a boot with a smaller cuff circumference and find a good bootfitter to make the forefoot 105mm wide.

    The two best examples are both relatively new designs, the Atomic Hawx Ultra and Salomon S/Max - both are 98mm lasts, but can be made to fit a wider forefoot in the right hands. Both are 1.5 to 2 inches smaller around the cuff than traditional designs. If you have to add a higher volume liner later, there will be much less space to fill.

  7. #7
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    Jun 2018
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    Cool, thanks. Will stick to the stiffer inserts.

    Dalbello KR2 Fusion (3 buckles). Have Sole inserts, for high arches. I remember it made a huge difference in the fit and comfort with the original liners. Can't imagine not using them now.

    How many days would it typically take, for stiffer foam inserts to pack out in the shin area? I think I'd had maybe 25 days with them when the shin bang started really being noticeable.

  8. #8
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    Dec 2016
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    Zipfits. Not speaking from experience but headed that direction myself. If youíre unfamiliar they have material you can inject to go beyond the stock issued amount- to fill in for best results.
    Not cheap but claims of 1500 days of use make them hard to beat. Thatís 4 intuitions at least.. with weaker results.

  9. #9
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    Apr 2017
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    I have the wife ankle/calves and skinny meet problem.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CascadeLuke View Post
    If you’re unfamiliar they have material you can inject to go beyond the stock issued amount- to fill in for best results.
    When you inject more material it goes around the ankle, not the calf.

  11. #11
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    Jan 2014
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    I would go:
    spoiler(s) in the rear,
    booster on the liner (below cuff)
    but a boot with smaller cuff will probably be more snug?

  12. #12
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    Thanks for the cuff diameter info. It's not easy to track down. I have some stick-on foam matt stuff I was also thinking of trying, to tighten the cuff diameter. Designed to fit >> modified to fit, though.

  13. #13
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    Boot Liners: Wide feet skinny calves conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by smooth operator View Post
    I would go:
    spoiler(s) in the rear,
    booster on the liner (below cuff)
    but a boot with smaller cuff will probably be more snug?
    This is the stuff I've been messing around with:

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074T24SV7/

    Works really good for building toe boxes and such when liner molding. I was using it in my touring boots, to try to create a lean angle. It layers onto itself and sticks really well. I don't know how long it would last under abuse. Just realized it might be good as a spoiler. Will give that a try.

  14. #14
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    Apr 2014
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    I have wide feet like you, but a high instep, thick but not overly large calves, and a narrow heel.

    I second zipfits. Specifically the grand-prix sidewinders. The forefoot-toe area is neoprene+wool is thinner than a lot of liners, which gives extra room. The ankle and instep are adjustable with the amount of OMFIT you put in in - by far the best heel hold I've had has come with zipfits.

    The tongue and cuff are pretty high volume compared to a lot of liners. I have med-large calves, and prior to molding my boots (X-Pro 130s and Hawx Prime 130 S) I could barely buckle the shells at the calf or instep (with spoiler removed, and I have the Zipfit Freeride sidewinders which are the same as the grand prix sidewinders, but the plastic support on the cuff stops a few inches lower, which lets my calves push the liner rearwards over the top of the boot). After molding the shells, the boot cuffs (and the insteps) expanded a lot and they're perfect now.

    So for you, I'd think the grand prix sidewinder + spoiler would probably be perfect without shell molding, as you need to take up space, whereas I needed to create more space in the shells to be able to use the liners. I had limited days last year on the zipfits, but I'm really facepalming that I didn't make the investment in them earlier. If you look online you can sometimes find them cheaper. Molding them is easier/requires less heat than intuitions.

  15. #15
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    I don’t know that boot well enough to know for sure, but sometimes modifying upper buckle systems can take up a lot of slack.

    Looking at a photo of that boot makes me think you could move the catch part of that cuff buckle over a cm or two and take up quite a bit of cuff volume just by a tighter buckling setup on the cuff.

    Plus...it’s something you can diy right now and it’s reversible and costs zero $.

  16. #16
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    Mar 2008
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    I been ductaping cut up pieces of irrigation hose inside the shell of my alpine boots, its not too thick so not to work with but builds up easily & faster than layering ductape and doesnt pack out at all
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    343
    I will add one more vote for Zipfits, especially for the skinny heel/ankle problem. I’ve added multiple rounds of OMFIT myself via both the ankle ports and the port at the base of the tongue to further improve the fit/heel hold of my Freetour XT 130 LVs. Downsides to Zipfits: they are expensive upfront, they are heavy, and they have no ROM rearward in a touring boot.

    For the skinny calf problem, I like the above suggestion of the Atomic Hawx Ultra series. I picked up a pair of Ultra 120 S on the cheap this summer. The diameter of the boot upper is noticeably smaller than the Freetour LV. So much so that my same Zipfit liners are maybe a little too high volume in the Hawx Ultras without a shell mold. And that is with spoilers in the Freetours and without spoilers in the Hawx Ultras. Gotta ski them in a few weeks to verify indoor impressions...

    Lastly, at least for me, a Booster strap as a fifth buckle at the top of the front of the liner reduces that shin pain the OP was describing in the initial post.
    Last edited by DGamms; 11-09-2019 at 07:37 PM. Reason: Typo

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    Start with a boot with a smaller cuff circumference and find a good bootfitter to make the forefoot 105mm wide.

    The two best examples are both relatively new designs, the Atomic Hawx Ultra and Salomon S/Max - both are 98mm lasts, but can be made to fit a wider forefoot in the right hands. Both are 1.5 to 2 inches smaller around the cuff than traditional designs. If you have to add a higher volume liner later, there will be much less space to fill.
    S/max is what I went with for my skinny ankles.
    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    Training carts are for jongs. I remember back when this forum had legit bull-fighters and not a bunch of posers.

  19. #19
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    I watched the Zipfit videos. Might've missed it, but it looks like the molding paste is continually remoldable. Is this true? If you overfill can you remove some later?

    Awesome write ups, by the way.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    343
    The Zipfit material is described as “liquid cork” and I’d say that’s not far off in my experience. It will remodel to most shells and feet after 5-10 minutes in a heated boot bag or on a heat stack. It will also form fit at room temp, it just takes a lot longer.

    I’ve never tried to remove OMFIT material from a liner, but I think in theory it is possible.

  21. #21
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    Apr 2014
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    Colorado
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    Boot Liners: Wide feet skinny calves conundrum

    Yeah the idea is the more you ski/mold your ZipFits the better. Every time you ski and/or get them warm the cork material softens up a bit and gets squished to areas where you have extra space/less pressure. This fills in the gap and helps create the super snug feel.

    Adding and removing omfit isnít too hard, there are some videos around and some good info on pugski

    Itís interesting to me, some Mags (myself included) will justify to themselves owning 5,10,15+ skis (and have owned/tried/sold many times that) when in reality their skiing will be just as good and enjoyable with only a few pairs.

    But for boots they will have a sort of one-and-done mentality (go to a bootfitter, get a boot, and leave it for many years after some initial work - generally speaking. Obviously some people spend a lot more time than that fitting hard to fit feet), when in reality the boot is the most important piece of equipment they own and skiing in a few different setups could really help them find something to elevate their skiing.

    And alternatively, they balk at the price of trying something like zipfits, or intuitions, or both. Price admittedly is one of the reasons people donít experiment with boots and liners, gets expensive quick.

    Even with going to a good bootfitter who can fit you well - in reality there are likely multiple boots that could work for you while having different feels on snow. And some bootfitters donít really carry /guide people into intuitions or zipfits (if they even stock one of those brands, let alone both). Yet people who make the leap into using them know how much better they are than stock liners. Not knocking on bootfitters at all though, 100% theyíre the best way for people to find the right boot for them. And plenty of good ones carry those liners But beyond that I think for a lot of people thereís still some stones left unturned after that process.

    Just rambling but Iíve decided this year Iím trying out different boot setups to see what I like, why, and in what conditions. Starting with two boots that fit me out of the box well (2019 Salomon X-Pro 130, pretty stiff, somewhat heavy) and 2019 Atomic Hawx Prime 130 S (light weight, softer flexing).

    Going to mix and match boots, booster straps, forward lean, liners (zipfit, also thinking about grabbing some intuition pro wraps in the group buy). And see what works best for me. Granted this is only really possible because the two bootís heat molding process works well and Iíve done it before and had good results - no boot work needed. And I may very well likely end up strongly preferring one setup over the other and lose out on a sizable chunk of cash for the experiment. But at least Iíll know

    Anyways, my .02 is I think itís worth it try zipfits personally haha. If they donít work they should be easy enough to sell, they really donít pack out for quite a long time if ever, and can be remolded pretty much endlessly
    Last edited by Muggydude; 11-10-2019 at 12:44 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muggydude View Post
    Even with going to a good bootfitter who can fit you well - in reality there are likely multiple boots that could work for you while having different feels on snow. And some bootfitters don’t really carry /guide people into intuitions or zipfits (if they even stock one of those brands, let alone both). Yet people who make the leap into using them know how much better they are than stock liners. Not knocking on bootfitters at all though, 100% they’re the best way for people to find the right boot for them. And plenty of good ones carry those liners But beyond that I think for a lot of people there’s still some stones left unturned after that process.
    We stopped carrying Zipfit after years of selling a few pairs a year. Yes, they ski great and can be rejuvenated more or less indefinitely, but they are also heavy, cold, and suck in a touring or "crossover" boot in walk mode. Plus, you can get another closeout boot for the same price. We sell tons of Intuitions, but stock liners have improved immensely in the past few years and it's hard to justify throwing away a new liner and adding $200 to your new boot tab for most people.

  23. #23
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    Sep 2014
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    1,600
    GregL: Just curious if you've ever 'reverse punched' the lateral portions of the dynafit mercury cuffs to reduce volume/more naturally follow the contours of skiers with average width ankles but very thin/low volume lower tib area? I asked dynafit about doing so for the vulcan cuffs and they said it's not possible due to the construction technique employing the carbon fibre. I think the mercuries are a blend of fibreglass and plastic.

    The experiment I was hoping to perform was using shaped blocks with rounded contours similar to the shape of my lower leg tensioned against the heated areas of interest via a large C clamp, one side at a time. The boots are completely trashed and used for gravel skiing only these days...so any grievous errors in the process wouldn't be the end of the world.

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    Master of mediocrity.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by swissiphic View Post
    GregL: Just curious if you've ever 'reverse punched' the lateral portions of the dynafit mercury cuffs to reduce volume/more naturally follow the contours of skiers with average width ankles but very thin/low volume lower tib area? I asked dynafit about doing so for the vulcan cuffs and they said it's not possible due to the construction technique employing the carbon fibre. I think the mercuries are a blend of fibreglass and plastic.
    No. It never occurred to me to do this when I owned the boots, and it doesn't come up now as they've been out of production for a while. I've punched for maleolus pain under both the carbon and fiberglass reinforced cuffs and it works to some extent - you just go until it starts making cracking sounds and stop adding pressure, then punch again with the with the liner in the boot. No manufacturer will tell you it's OK to punch carbon fiber shell or cuff material.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    We sell tons of Intuitions, but stock liners have improved immensely in the past few years and it's hard to justify throwing away a new liner and adding $200 to your new boot tab for most people.
    Also there are a number of brands ( Scarpa, Dalbello ) putting Intuition liners in their boots which is great but with the my last 2 Dynafit boots, I accept that I am just buying an expensive shell
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

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