What are the manufacturing costs of common ski apparel?

[NorCalNomad]

naaa, i think if you are a brand buying from a manufacturing plant that is partially owned by the China govt or by a party insider you are doing pretty much the same thing....just a fact....maybe the former is a step closer to the HRV....but whether the brand/buyer is first tier purchaser of HRV made goods, or second, they are still funneling money to human rights violations and ecological damage from production waste...





this kinda says otherwise, right??? the types of products below lend themselves to very high margins for brands...below with design tweaks make for a less gaperific garment but the production costs are pretty much the same...costs only go up using branded zippers, fabrics, certified down, etc...

While I'm not sure of Anta's policies on HRV and ecological review of their suppliers, their primary market is definitely on lower end stuff which has to bring along those things knowing Chinese manufacturing. I know multiple products that have been made by VF, that had to shift factory or materials because of suppliers and manufactures not meeting basic ecological and HRV audits. Hell, even if their book keeping isn't up to snuff VF will walk away from factories.

And the images of off the shelf stuff you show are not high end stuff, common you know that. Zipper flaps haven't been on pinnacle stuff for about a decade. Maybe I worded it wrong. The MSRP $100-$200 rain jacket (and off the shelf patterns) are making a better margin that the MSRP $500-$700 3L pinnacle jacket.

All this being said you guys over at Freeride Systems make some rad stuff, and I'm stoked you guys can do it in CO/ the USA.

[Micol]

While I'm not sure of Anta's policies on HRV and ecological review of their suppliers, their primary market is definitely on lower end stuff which has to bring along those things knowing Chinese manufacturing. I know multiple products that have been made by VF, that had to shift factory or materials because of suppliers and manufactures not meeting basic ecological and HRV audits. Hell, even if their book keeping isn't up to snuff VF will walk away from factories.

And the images of off the shelf stuff you show are not high end stuff, common you know that. Zipper flaps haven't been on pinnacle stuff for about a decade. Maybe I worded it wrong. The MSRP $100-$200 rain jacket (and off the shelf patterns) are making a better margin that the MSRP $500-$700 3L pinnacle jacket.

All this being said you guys over at Freeride Systems make some rad stuff, and I'm stoked you guys can do it in CO/ the USA.

no, no im with you and i def dont want to come across as defensive and argumentative...this is all just for sake of discussion at a deeper level than assumptions....a lot of $200 msrp jackets are not way to far off from those pictures....they will get tweaked by vf's pattern makers to make them more modern along with latest greatest notions and gimmicks like thru cord systems and such...and the cost to add those bells and whistles makes the finished product in the same neighborhood as that stuff i posted....i should say that the jackets i looked at from the china factories and the sourcing events were fully seam taped high quality finishes (just not branded fabrics and zippers) and had all the latest fabric breaks and thru shell cord systems and such....

but on a $500-700 jacket I am going to still say the only real additional costs are the premium zippers and fabric. The cost to design those garments may be $5,000 but the brand is going to spread that expense over 2000, 5000, 10000 or whatever number they make for that garment. if they have in house pattern making like VF would have , that cost is really already covered in someone's salary and part of their variable expense on the p&L. An outside pattern maker would actually have to be cost averaged (imo) and figured into cost of goods sold for each garment and style....a china factory will have the certified gore seam taping machines...i doubt they charge the VF's and Marmots of the world more to make those garments than other non gore seam taped jackets just due to the shear size of these brand's accounts and income stream for the factory. but i do not know this for fact

whatever the case , lets say a base type shell gets upgraded with some fancier pattern work, gore-tex and ykk zippers. My best guess is that could add about $50-90 to a jackets cost and it would be the latter if those were aquaguard zippers instead of regular ones.

So a $35 base china non brand shell gets upgraded by $65 (fabric @25, zippers and $3 pattern) and that includes couple dollars for an outside pattern maker whose cost has been cost averaged over a couple thousand garments for that style. the COGS is going to be $100. Now they need to pay tariff, customs, freight....I am not sure of customs/tariffs due to current administration policies....the frieght is going to be about $5000 for a TEU or FEU (cant remember which one is about $5K cause i dont participate in these overseas transactions but i have had them priced back in the day so i could understand my competitors costs). But that is averaged over all the garments in the container, that could be like 25,000 garments or more....$0.50 per garment avg. So, lets say that the landed cost is $100 and they wholesale if for $350 and MSRP is $699.

The gross profit from COGS to MSRP is 85.7%
The gross profit from COGS to Wholesale is 71.4%


Now lets look at a t-shirt made in South America tariff free trade zone Say the shirt cost $1 , MSRP $25, wholesale $12.50

The gross profit from COGS to MSRP is 96%
The gross profit from COGS to Wholesale is 92%


i think i just supported your point that tshirt margins are better than jackets lol...but both are still pretty damn high vs anything made in usa
i would sure be curious to know what pct of sales are derived from t-shirts vs outerwear.....and maybe tshirts landed really cost $2, this would skew the numbers on gross margin a little closer together....

ps...thanks on the freeride compliment

[Micol]

^ o dam i should have run numbers on rain jackets vs more expensive shells....and not tshirts vs exp shells...but im too tired now to do it....lol

[pureantigravity]

Micol and gang are delivering intel that only my Chinese network was previously able to obtain.
Whatever my motivation for starting this bull fight, it has morphed into an educational enterprise
worthy of all the laminated and layered
manufacturing and marketing
and financial intricacies
that make skiing enjoyable
in the worst (best) climate conditions.

That was a load of crap except to say, thanks MiCol and gang for sharing your experience and intel here.
I can only think that this also bodes well for Freeride Systems and also for buying local.
Cost isn't everything.
Heart and soul and supporting the local economy should count for something too!

[pureantigravity]

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...ostco-Arcteryx

Related matters.

[wooley12]

Much cheaper when only small available. You still don't get it?

[pureantigravity]

Much cheaper when only small available. You still don't get it?

Not trying to pull the Wooley over your eyes.
Sizes S-XL. And they had them down to $129 with an e-coupon.
Only S remain.
Do you get it now, do you?
I'd say a Costco warranty and return policy is better than an Arcterix one too. They are offering a lifetime full refund if you are not satisfied.

[wooley12]

and the answer is..............wait....... I used to sell that shit. We called it close outs. Cost or below. Why don't you just buy all your ski gear at Costco? You'll save a bunch. Hell, just live there and start a biz reselling. Easy peezy.

[skithewest]

Not trying to pull the Wooley over your eyes.
Sizes S-XL. And they had them down to $129 with an e-coupon.
Only S remain.
Do you get it now, do you?
I'd say a Costco warranty and return policy is better than an Arcterix one too. They are offering a lifetime full refund if you are not satisfied.

Lol this is literally the opposite of a deal. Evo has the same jacket for less than $100. The Canadian dollar isn't THAT bad. The rest of that thread notes the questionable quality of a Costco arcteryx jacket, and rightly so. The grey market for all clothing is ridiculous. That shirt you got at the J. Crew outlet? Made for the outlet, with associated quality.

there aren't any Ambassadors listed, their YouTube is virtually absent, and their isn't a Facebook listed or Instagram listed.

To me these are serious issues because I want to see video reviews before I spend $500. I want to see Facebook comments and reviews. I want to see cool athletes, or just plain users, happy with their purchases on Instagram.
discourse.

OP, I was wondering about costing as well after noticing a sharp uptick in outerwear sticker price starting ~ 2016. I chalked it up to an increase in influencer/paid review/"cool athletes" marketing, and looks like you proved me right.

I don't post much because I don't have anything to contribute. Interesting info from micol aside, stop pushing the issue, you've taken too many L's to have any credibility.

[wooley12]

My brother made extra bucks by buying NFL jerseys at Marshalls and selling on line at 2x his cost. When I was running cigars to golf courses the owner of the cigar shop was buying Panama hats at the Target a mile away for $19 and selling them out of the shop for $50.

You are aware of the morphic changes at Arcteryx, right?

[pureantigravity]

My brother made extra bucks by buying NFL jerseys at Marshalls and selling on line at 2x his cost. When I was running cigars to golf courses the owner of the cigar shop was buying Panama hats at the Target a mile away for $19 and selling them out of the shop for $50.

You are aware of the morphic changes at Arcteryx, right?

https://www.snewsnet.com/news/costco...industry-goods

What you are saying doesn't square up with what they are saying.

Give that a gander, please and then enlighten us all.

FYI - I'm not doubting your cigar selling skills or your industry experience. But what you are claiming seems at odds with what is now happening.

Lol this is literally the opposite of a deal. Evo has the same jacket for less than $100. The Canadian dollar isn't THAT bad. The rest of that thread notes the questionable quality of a Costco arcteryx jacket, and rightly so. The grey market for all clothing is ridiculous. That shirt you got at the J. Crew outlet? Made for the outlet, with associated quality.



OP, I was wondering about costing as well after noticing a sharp uptick in outerwear sticker price starting ~ 2016. I chalked it up to an increase in influencer/paid review/"cool athletes" marketing, and looks like you proved me right.

I don't post much because I don't have anything to contribute. Interesting info from micol aside, stop pushing the issue, you've taken too many L's to have any credibility.

OK. So EVO.com has reduced to cost because they know Costco is selling them now.
And https://www.arcteryx.com/ is selling them for $200 CAD.
$159 USD on the US site.
So what's your point?

It isn't even a $37 jacket (cost basis).
My credibility isn't the issue, the prices are. The cost is.
This is about a discussion that a lot of people don't want to happen.

This is about cost and retail price.
I'm not here to tell you what to buy, what to pay, or what constitutes value.
I could care less about the reasons why.
I'm here for Joe.

PS - It warms my cockles to know that I prompted your 9th post in 10 years on TGR. I don't consider that as taking an L. That's actually a big win.

[wooley12]

What are the odds of off price brand name goods showing up in a discount store? 100 percent.

[pureantigravity]

What are the odds of off price brand name goods showing up in a discount store? 100 percent.

And I don't have a problem with that. The quality and style isn't off.
There is definitely the demand or Costco wouldn't find a grey market source and go to the efforts or getting the stock.


I wonder what these look like in real life? Are they easily distinguished fakes?
https://www.zebrakone.com/Men/Active...rmance/page/2/

[wooley12]

If they have the quality, and you're ok with child and/or slave labor, write a TR. I know that prices for shirts and dresses dropped like off a cliff when my grandpa immigrated from Canada and got a job in a shirt factory in Troy, NY when he was 7.

[pureantigravity]

If they have the quality, and you're ok with child and/or slave labor, write a TR. I know that prices for shirts and dresses dropped like off a cliff when my grandpa immigrated from Canada and got a job in a shirt factory in Troy, NY when he was 7.

So you have a TR of your own, of your trip to the genuine Dead Bird factories in Asia?
Suggest you put up.
Would love to see your intel.

[Timberridge]

got a job in a shirt factory in Troy, NY when he was 7.

Did he ever eat at Ted's Fish Fry?

[glademaster]

There was an interesting story on Marketplace yesterday about the proliferation of illegal garment production facilities in the US over the last 10 or so years. Just because a piece of clothing is made in the US doesn't mean that it wasn't made by someone forced for work 14 hour days for $2.50-4.00/hour.

[wooley12]

So you have a TR of your own, of your trip to the genuine Dead Bird factories in Asia?
Suggest you put up.
Would love to see your intel.

The factories that I worked for directly, paid $11/hr in today's dollars and employment included room and board inside a secure factory campus. There was a more experienced quality checker for every 3 sewers. My clients like Kodak and Burton insisted on a factory visit as part of the vendor selection process. The other factories that I used for smaller clients were visited by an agent to ensure quality, including fair labor practices. No slaves or children + Fair wage = better and consistent quality. No PR surprises. Now, Grandpa got room and board from the factory too but it was deducted from his pay.

How's that?

[wooley12]

There was an interesting story on Marketplace yesterday about the proliferation of illegal garment production facilities in the US over the last 10 or so years. Just because a piece of clothing is made in the US doesn't mean that it wasn't made by someone forced for work 14 hour days for $2.50-4.00/hour.

When I was selling ladies shirts made in Mass. and a client showed me a shirt at half my price that said it was made in the USA I'd say "Yes, by Asians in Brooklyn sweatshops wondering what country they were in. And don't forget about Saipan.

[pureantigravity]

The factories that I worked for directly, paid $11/hr in today's dollars and employment included room and board inside a secure factory campus. There was a more experienced quality checker for every 3 sewers. My clients like Kodak and Burton insisted on a factory visit as part of the vendor selection process. The other factories that I used for smaller clients were visited by an agent to ensure quality, including fair labor practices. No slaves or children + Fair wage = better and consistent quality. No PR surprises. Now, Grandpa got room and board from the factory too but it was deducted from his pay.

How's that?

That's interesting.
But you haven't been to the genuine Dead Bird factories in Asia?
You are convinced that they are *that much better* than the ones where fakes are made.
You have proof of this?

[wooley12]

I'd bet that you lie awake at night knowing that there IS an answer to the question "how many grains of sand is there in the Sahara Desert" and know that you will never know.

Also, your point was pointless.

[pureantigravity]

I'd bet that you lie awake at night knowing that there IS an answer to the question "how many grains of sand is there in the Sahara Desert" and know that you will never know.

Also, your point was pointless.

Let me remind you what you said:

If they have the quality, and you're ok with child and/or slave labor, write a TR. I know that prices for shirts and dresses dropped like off a cliff when my grandpa immigrated from Canada and got a job in a shirt factory in Troy, NY when he was 7.

I'm just curious how you reached that conclusion re: "you're ok with child and/or slave labor". You said this in the context of my post about the price and quality of knockoffs.
You are saying that you have reasons to believe that the labor in asian factories that makes knockoffs,
is different than the labor that makes the genuine branded items.


I'd like to believe that the labor conditions for a $900 Dead Bird jacket is better than the labor conditions for a $56 knockoff.
I'm waiting for your TR, or some other reliable 3rd party findings that big brand factories in China, Malaysia and Bangladesh are much better.
Everything else you are sayings is just avoiding backing up that claim.

[wooley12]

You are saying that you have reasons to believe that the labor in asian factories that makes knockoffs, is different than the labor that makes the genuine branded items.

Yep. That was easy.

Dead Bird is a brand name? Who knew.

[pureantigravity]

...
Dead Bird is a brand name? Who knew.

That's right. You might need a good drink and some esoteric music to loosen up your imagination.
You will eventually get it.

The factories that I worked for directly, paid $11/hr in today's dollars and employment included room and board inside a secure factory campus. There was a more experienced quality checker for every 3 sewers. My clients like Kodak and Burton insisted on a factory visit as part of the vendor selection process. The other factories that I used for smaller clients were visited by an agent to ensure quality, including fair labor practices. No slaves or children + Fair wage = better and consistent quality. No PR surprises. Now, Grandpa got room and board from the factory too but it was deducted from his pay.

How's that?

That's the best you have offered yet.


"My clients like Kodak and Burton insisted on a factory visit as part of the vendor selection process. The other factories that I used for smaller clients were visited by an agent to ensure quality, including fair labor practices. No slaves or children + Fair wage = better and consistent quality. "

These are factories in Asia or USA?

How many factories failed a labor practices 'visit'?
Did they know when you were coming?
How about subcontractors?
Isn't a very small portion of these brands product made at any one factory?

So how does that work today (factory inspections) and what are common ways that brands are fooled into thinking they are "ethically" produced?


Icebreaker has a barcode tag that shows the trace to the sheep that makes the wool.

Why can't Dead Bird, Burton et al. provide a barcode that traces the production to the actual people - sort of like a World Vision sponsor card but showing the person(s) or places where said goods are sewn/assembled, etc. I'd imagine such a thing would bolster the ability of the 1% to virtue signal their clothing choices.

[MakersTeleMark]

You guys are pathetic.