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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    $700 Goretex Jacket
    Retailer bought for 45% MAP : $315 This is more likely $350 from retailers that i talk to that sell flylow, north face, etc)
    Brand makes 20% NET profit (after all their corp expenses and slush and salaries): $250 total cost to produce[ if you include all the brands fixed and variable expenses and slush expense accounts} (This is more like a total of COGS and expenses (not GAP accounting correct to lump into a single number....cloudy right here)
    Factory Paid $70 to produce and ship to distribution center: True COGS (cost of goods sold of Gore-tex brnaded fabric jacket $70 made in ASIA/ only $25 total cost of garment if generic fabric or the retail brand's made up inhouse fabric e.g. HyVent, H2No, etc)


    Goretex fees, R&D, Design Team, Marketing, Accounting, Sales, HR, Lease and Utilities, taxes and management.
    These are fixed and variable expenses of the clothing brand and can include private jets, media junkets , executive OVERcompensation bonuses and salaries, etc etc - the jacket sold at $315 wholesale has a 78% gross profit margin


    This assumes the company doesn’t have any of their own capital involved in production. Which then assumes the $70 includes all that plus the sales, production, engineering, management, accounting, taxes, material costs, training, and goretex licensing. This is the profit of the China or Vietnam factory owner (and their govt who tend to be partners) these costs are the TRUE and REAL COGS cost of goods sold = So the jacket wholesaled to retailer for $315 has a 78% profit margin at $70 factory make cost which the brand pays for. the brand makes the spread between the $315 and $70 or the $350 and the $25 (plus freight, tariff, tax $37 haha) this is more like a 90% Gross profit margin selling wholesale, when consumer pays a retailer....or the clothing brand direct for Asian made tech goods, the cost may be 10% of the total commercial register or online sale

    45 minutes a jacket is slow as fuck. (True when you are using childrens tears to grease the wheels of tiny village china vietnam production and the workers with no age limits work everyday of the week for 12 hours or more a day)

    ^ edited above to add some facts clarity transparency and lay persons language to some of the cloudiness

    OP

    the lurking balance sheet entry for the public companies you are studying (Amer, VF Corp, Columbia, etc) that you are probably not paying attention to is the "Assets" "Inventory" this stuff builds up as clothing brands do buy backs of previous years merchandise in order to sell more and record more "Revenue or Sales" for current year. Eventually when the steep and cheaps and TJ Max (and even their own direct outlet stores) hit the limit, saturate the market and devalue the clothing brands name with flow of cheap product , the whole thing implodes (this is the proverbial "Race to the Bottom".....see GoLite (brand) or one of the early iterations of the North Face which was in and out of near bankruptcy prior to ownership and acquisition by VF Corp.... YOY the assets 'inventory" will keep increasing until they can write it off and literally bury the stuff in a dump somewhere....the CFO and crafty accounting moves will move this toxic stuff off their balance sheets as soon as possible when not detectible to the analysts..,,,the private companies like Patagonia and Burton can do it anytime they want because their financials are not public....

    its the dragon eating its own tail......eventually it consumes itself and death follows....the things that keep these businesses alive are access to more capital to fund the cycle, this can come through secondary offerings of stock sales , corp borrowings, lines of credit, etc, for private companies they go to lenders, small time investors or the families that are financially backing them...all of them can use their supply chain as a source of credit, simply by delaying paying for their goods they sell...or never paying at all.... (just a note... there can be legit instances in not paying a bill due to a dispute over the transaction or quality of good or service, everyone that presents a bill is not entitled to payment just because they send a bill - their offerings must follow contracts or be fair and reasonable and or satisfy both buyer and seller)

    Golite
    https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n...-owed-for.html
    https://sgbonline.com/golite-files-b...-liquidiation/
    one more good search link on golite deal
    https://www.google.com/search?biw=14...h1QMICw&uact=5



    watch this movie on the apparel industry , 2nd dirtiest industry after petroleum....
    https://truecostmovie.com/
    Last edited by MiCol; 11-01-2019 at 01:05 PM.
    My Company: Made in Colorado SKi Clothing- check it out

    No Powderskirts ! Shell yeah mf'ers ! ô ô ô
    Last year/season for 'Threads for Shreds' jacket trade in program!
    www.freeridesystems.com
    20% Maggot Discount Code = 'MAGGOT20'

  2. #77
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    Just to try and help you integrate what MiCol is telling you and what I'm telling you, the 20% profit margin he's discussing is more similar to a concept called EBITDA margin than earnings margin. The primary differences for Amer are taxes and interest on debt.

    It turns out for Amer in particular EBITDA margin is around 12% not 20% historically, but I suspect that's because jackets are higher margin for Amer than other products.

    Have no view on whether all brands do what MiCol is discussing. Certainly he is correct that many unsuccessful brands do.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    A seamstress I met the other day suggested that she could manufacture most of the current ski jacket designs (give her the pattern, material, seam tape, etc.) and she could do a good job in less than 45 minutes.
    Pfft. I know a chick that can do it in less than 44 minutes.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47bp View Post
    Pfft. I know a chick that can do it in less than 44 minutes.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Billing by the minute is getting her underpaid, and you under-served.
    Find a new chick or tell her to slow down!

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly View Post
    I can't see a picture.
    Huh? OK. I have no idea why. I used the BB forum code. It shows up fine for me. (checks mobile). Nope, can't see it on mobile. So none of the poctures I posted showed up. Frigg. I'll edit the posts to show pics a different way. You will see what I meant when you see the picture (from same report as you quoted).

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    Huh? OK. I have no idea why. I used the BB forum code. It shows up fine for me. (checks mobile). Nope, can't see it on mobile. So none of the poctures I posted showed up. Frigg. I'll edit the posts to show pics a different way. You will see what I meant when you see the picture (from same report as you quoted).
    Ah, I just looked at a PC. I see what you're talking about - that's EBIT margin. It's not the same thing. Amer borrowed money they have to pay interest on and they have to pay taxes because Finland.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly View Post
    ...The rest of your comments - I have no idea what Arcteryx charged for jackets in 2004. However, due to the gradual march of inflation I would expect that they would charge about 1.35x as much today to simply to tread water on a purchasing power basis. If they spent some money trying to make their jackets better in the interim I would expect they would charge more than 1.35x as much. In actual reality it may be the case that because of market dynamics dead bird can't pass along all of their inflationary costs to consumer so prices went up by less than 1.35x, but that's essentially equivalent to a dollar depreciation led discount. If you personally happen to making the same number of dollars you were in 2004, I don't think dead bird is accountable for your poor life choices and somehow obligated to sell at a ski bum discount unless you get a pro code.
    Right, because over a period of 16 years, inflation of 35% wasn't offset by returns on investments, gains in process and productivity, much more lucractive Direct-Online sales to consumers, or better quality 'enriched' rice to reward workers and improve production morale!



    http://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/2004

    Yup. Inflation of 35%. That's meaningless to anyone that has suffered Wage Stagnation or is a typical member of the American Dream Club. Wages haven't exactly kept pace with inflation.

    For most U.S. workers, real wages have barely budged in decades

    "today’s real average wage (that is, the wage after accounting for inflation) has about the same purchasing power it did 40 years ago. And what wage gains there have been have mostly flowed to the highest-paid tier of workers."


    Fuck pro codes. I want free gear and full sponsorship.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly View Post
    Ah, I just looked at a PC. I see what you're talking about - that's EBIT margin. It's not the same thing. Amer borrowed money they have to pay interest on and they have to pay taxes because Finland.
    OK. Got it. Chart confused me.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiCol View Post

    Originally Posted by XavierD >>>>
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    $700 Goretex Jacket
    Retailer bought for 45% MAP : $315 This is more likely $350 from retailers that i talk to that sell flylow, north face, etc)
    Brand makes 20% NET profit (after all their corp expenses and slush and salaries): $250 total cost to produce[ if you include all the brands fixed and variable expenses and slush expense accounts} (This is more like a total of COGS and expenses (not GAP accounting correct to lump into a single number....cloudy right here)
    Factory Paid $70 to produce and ship to distribution center: True COGS (cost of goods sold of Gore-tex brnaded fabric jacket $70 made in ASIA/ only $25 total cost of garment if generic fabric or the retail brand's made up inhouse fabric e.g. HyVent, H2No, etc)


    Goretex fees, R&D, Design Team, Marketing, Accounting, Sales, HR, Lease and Utilities, taxes and management.
    These are fixed and variable expenses of the clothing brand and can include private jets, media junkets , executive OVERcompensation bonuses and salaries, etc etc - the jacket sold at $315 wholesale has a 78% gross profit margin


    This assumes the company doesn’t have any of their own capital involved in production. Which then assumes the $70 includes all that plus the sales, production, engineering, management, accounting, taxes, material costs, training, and goretex licensing. This is the profit of the China or Vietnam factory owner (and their govt who tend to be partners) these costs are the TRUE and REAL COGS cost of goods sold = So the jacket wholesaled to retailer for $315 has a 78% profit margin at $70 factory make cost which the brand pays for. the brand makes the spread between the $315 and $70 or the $350 and the $25 (plus freight, tariff, tax $37 haha) this is more like a 90% Gross profit margin selling wholesale, when consumer pays a retailer....or the clothing brand direct for Asian made tech goods, the cost may be 10% of the total commercial register or online sale

    45 minutes a jacket is slow as fuck. (True when you are using childrens tears to grease the wheels of tiny village china vietnam production and the workers with no age limits work everyday of the week for 12 hours or more a day)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



    ^ edited above to add some facts clarity transparency and lay persons language to some of the cloudiness

    OP

    the lurking balance sheet entry for the public companies you are studying (Amer, VF Corp, Columbia, etc) that you are probably not paying attention to is the "Assets" "Inventory" this stuff builds up as clothing brands do buy backs of previous years merchandise in order to sell more and record more "Revenue or Sales" for current year. Eventually when the steep and cheaps and TJ Max (and even their own direct outlet stores) hit the limit, saturate the market and devalue the clothing brands name with flow of cheap product , the whole thing implodes (this is the proverbial "Race to the Bottom".....see GoLite (brand) or one of the early iterations of the North Face which was in and out of near bankruptcy prior to ownership and acquisition by VF Corp.... YOY the assets 'inventory" will keep increasing until they can write it off and literally bury the stuff in a dump somewhere....the CFO and crafty accounting moves will move this toxic stuff off their balance sheets as soon as possible when not detectible to the analysts..,,,the private companies like Patagonia and Burton can do it anytime they want because their financials are not public....

    its the dragon eating its own tail......eventually it consumes itself and death follows....the things that keep these businesses alive are access to more capital to fund the cycle, this can come through secondary offerings of stock sales , corp borrowings, lines of credit, etc, for private companies they go to lenders, small time investors or the families that are financially backing them...all of them can use their supply chain as a source of credit, simply by delaying paying for their goods they sell...or never paying at all.... (just a note... there can be legit instances in not paying a bill due to a dispute over the transaction or quality of good or service, everyone that presents a bill is not entitled to payment just because they send a bill - their offerings must follow contracts or be fair and reasonable and or satisfy both buyer and seller)

    Golite
    https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n...-owed-for.html
    https://sgbonline.com/golite-files-b...-liquidiation/
    one more good search link on golite deal
    https://www.google.com/search?biw=14...h1QMICw&uact=5



    watch this movie on the apparel industry , 2nd dirtiest industry after petroleum....
    https://truecostmovie.com/

    MiCol delivers!
    Appreciate the laymans/laypersons language.
    Amazeballs. Seriously.
    I'm starting to understand.
    I got to reread this all to digest it.

    edit: Starting to make sense why they are focusing so much on brand stores and clothing brand direct (e-tail) website sales.
    The prices is the same as traditional retail and they keep so much more profit.
    The stores are all leased (deductible expense), the staff are expendable or part-time (flexible) and the margins are hugely better.
    By positioning themselves right next to the retailers selling the same items (Whistler Village for example), they capture a share of the sales in their store, don't undercut themselves AND control the sales price. When they need to clear, they just do their sale, forcing everyone else with the same items to do the same sale and clear stock across both retail channels. Brilliant.
    Last edited by puregravity; 11-01-2019 at 03:17 PM.

  10. #85
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    The answer is still $37, right?

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post

    For most U.S. workers, real wages have barely budged in decades

    "todayís real average wage (that is, the wage after accounting for inflation) has about the same purchasing power it did 40 years ago. And what wage gains there have been have mostly flowed to the highest-paid tier of workers."
    I don't think you know what most of those words mean. That chart shows real wages being exactly flat over time, so in this simple example you would be making 35% more dollars and a dead bird jacket would cost the exact same fraction of your income. That is wages exactly keeping pace with inflation, "real average wage" is inflation adjusted by definition. What is troubling to economists is that this number hasn't grown, not that it's shrank (which is what would have to be happening for people to make the same number of dollars now as in 2004).

    You are correct that wage gains at the top have been bigger than those in the middle, so the dead bird jacket is getting cheaper as a fraction of rich people's income. Much of your complaint at this point comes to disagreements with capitalism as a construct. This isn't the padded room, so I'm gonna drop it now.

  12. #87
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    "By positioning themselves right next to the retailers selling the same items (Whistler Village for example), they capture a share of the sales in their store, don't undercut themselves AND control the sales price. When they need to clear, they just do their sale, forcing everyone else with the same items to do the same sale and clear stock across both retail channels. Brilliant."

    yep, nothing says thanks for all your support like undercutting the retailers that built the brands up, makes purchasing decisions easy when your biggest competitor is your supplier....
    what's orange and looks good on hippies?

    fire

    rails are for trains
    If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for problems caused by the government I'd be a rich fat film maker in a baseball hat.

  13. #88
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    After 5 pages, I still donít understand the point of the question.

    Love MiColís input. It def gels with what Iíve seen (I helped a niche ski apparel co with getting money in this past summer).

    Having seen a couple niche ski-related companies (apparel and ski mfg) financials in the past couple of years, it is a brutal business that sane investors would shun. If it werenít for maniacs (in the most flattering sense of the term) like MiCol, weíd be far worse off.

    Groups like Amer have their flaws, but without them, I suspect a lot of the industry would have died off years ago. You need someone making money (and to be clear, without having opened financials, I am guessing Amerís ski segment is very small in the grand scheme of things and doesnít actually churn that much cash) to feed the masses.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  14. #89
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    What are the manufacturing costs of common ski apparel?

    Maybe Iím giving him too much credit, but he just seems interested in how it works as a biz
    Last edited by mcski; 11-02-2019 at 11:58 AM.

  15. #90
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    I'm just curious on when and where the truck runs to the dump with the excess inventory....

  16. #91
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    It gets shipped to South America.

    OP. You are so ignorant about the subject that you don't know you're question is dumb. Most people are like that at one time or another. What is the manufactures cost? It depends and it's I'ts irrelevant to what the retail price is. Cheap stuff from China is poor quality. Good stuff from China is good quality and quality costs. I repped a Chinese bag maker in the 1990's. Sold a camera bag to Kodak for $3.50. They retailed it at $20. Kodak required that we break down the component costs including material, hardware, QC, tariffs, duty, overhead and profit. As I recall the profit was slim.

    The factory had 4000 young ladies sewing for $3.50/day. Room and board was included. Their kids are now engineers. My grandpa immigrated the the US from Quebec when he was 5. When he was 7 he was working in a shirt factory and living in the company housing. Guess that's the way it is with unskilled labor in labor intensive manufacturing.
    Last edited by wooley12; 11-02-2019 at 12:42 AM.
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    It gets shipped to South America.

    OP. You are so ignorant about the subject that you don't know you're question is dumb. Most people are like that at one time or another. What is the manufactures cost? It depends and it's I'ts irrelevant to what the retail price is. Cheap stuff from China is poor quality. Good stuff from China is good quality and quality costs. I repped a Chinese bag maker in the 1990's. Sold a camera bag to Kodak for $3.50. They retailed it at $20. Kodak required that we break down the component costs including material, hardware, QC, tariffs, duty, overhead and profit. As I recall the profit was slim.

    The factory had 4000 young ladies sewing for $3.50/day. Room and board was included. Their kids are now engineers. My grandpa immigrated the the US from Quebec when he was 5. When he was 7 he was working in a shirt factory and living in the company housing. Guess that's the way it is with unskilled labor in labor intensive manufacturing.
    Well, I am obviously ignorant. Not stupid enough to pay that much. But definitely ignorant! That's why I truly am grateful for your input, and other mags here sharing their experience.

    “If you want to know what is ahead, ask those who are coming back.”
    It sounds like you have been there and back and can probably share a lot of your experiences to help make us all better.


    I am interested on your take, your interpretation, of price-quality relationship in light of testing that shows otherwise.

    For example, this CBC documentary.
    With high priced and low priced sports shoes found that the lowest price one they tested ranked as well on all the metrics, or better, than the highest priced samples. Give it a watch. To save time, start at 12:00:

    Shoe Wars: High cost vs. Low Cost
    https://gem.cbc.ca/media/marketplace...5a-011df17920c
    "Marketplace tests big brand name sneakers such as Nike, Adidas and Under Armour to see if they can actually improve your game or if you're just shelling out money for a hoop dream."



    On another front ...
    I am interested to know the price of a PFAFF 8303I (product page). Or even an older Pfaff 8303-040/002 Youtube only). That's some serious equipment. But is it as pricey as some people claim? Please save me a phone call. Who knows? Although, maybe "Seam welding" is what the best jackets and pants use. Who knows? How much money and what kind of training? I've got a room with a few thousand young ladies in it. They are Squirrels technically - but still ladies. They go nuts when I make them stand around waiting for work (although they do like to play with lasers!!!).
    Last edited by puregravity; 11-02-2019 at 07:40 AM. Reason: added info re current warehouse work status (i.e. lasers)

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    This is the first time I have even heard of your brand.
    You joined TGR over 10 years ago and you never heard of Freeride Systems ?

    What a fucking JONG.

    Plus MiCol is a super chill guy to ski with and hang with. He has been to my house multiple times and I have been to his house multiple times. He has definitely earned his t-shirt, and he wears it with pride. I wear my Freeride Systems jacket with pride.

    My advice: quit acting like DeepSouthMafia and start acting like MiCol.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    "Zee damn fat skis are ruining zee piste !" -Oscar Schevlin

    "Hike up your skirt and grow a dick you fucking crybaby" -what Bunion said to Harry at the top of The Headwaters

  19. #94
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    GoLite 2.0, aka MyTrail, going out of business: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/...t-my-trail-co/


    Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

  20. #95
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    How can not even the most cursory reading of TGR not know about Colorado Freeride Systems? Talk about outta touch.
    Ski Shop



    Do not tell fish stories where the people know you; but particularly, don't tell them where they know the fish.

    Mark Twain

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    ....t-shirt....wears it with pride.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    this is absolutely true and love hanging with you guys...i look fwd to this season!!!
    My Company: Made in Colorado SKi Clothing- check it out

    No Powderskirts ! Shell yeah mf'ers ! ô ô ô
    Last year/season for 'Threads for Shreds' jacket trade in program!
    www.freeridesystems.com
    20% Maggot Discount Code = 'MAGGOT20'

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    MiCol delivers!
    Appreciate the laymans/laypersons language.
    Amazeballs. Seriously.
    Again, how do you not know about micol's business? The entire story has been right here on this forum for years.

    The Antero is the mag jacket. If you want to support living-wage jobs, and environmental responsibility, while getting a kick ass jacket, forget about those other brands and just buy one.

  23. #98
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    What are the manufacturing costs of common ski apparel?

    Take it easy. Iíve been on here for a while and have never really heard of it here either. I have very minor brand recognition of the name, but not from here and for sure I had no idea it was a mag co. Itís not a BFD

    I was really impressed w micolís responses chiming in regardless

  24. #99
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    Geeeeezzzzz. All jump on why don't cha. I'll get a few jackets right away!
    Don't want to be seen in anything else ...
    as I drive through Colorado with my arse out the window
    for you all to see

    Maybe I am in the wrong forums. I spend most of my time reading that 4,000 post long NSFW post in the padded room.
    People here ski for real? I'll be darned!!

    I do recollect it a bit. No, I was pretty ignorant about it.
    But I did buy Quiver Killers. They said that's all I needed to get my wings?!?!

    I do want a TGR ball cap.

    I'll be sure to check out COLORADO FREERIDE SYSTEMS.
    Here, .... I'll let you all USE ME SOME MORE TO FLOG YOUR SHIT. Here's a clever review video from 2014 of the Anterro Jacket.
    Someone post a newer, more better, YourTube video if there is one.





    Come to think of it, fuck that shit and watch this:




    LOL. That was kinda funny. LOL. HA ha.


    OK - So, anyone got a good YouTube review that is recent of these Colorado Freeride Systems jackets (and pants?) that you are all wearing?
    Seriously.
    Let's see em.
    Put up or shutt uppp!



    PS - A quick Google Search reveals that the first forum to have notable "Colorado Freeride Systems" review content is ...
    PUGSKI

  25. #100
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    Is everyone at Newshhooler ad needy and ignoant as you seem?
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

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