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  1. #51
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    This should be in the bull fighting forum.

  2. #52
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    read this with this: im not taking any of what you (op) are stating or asking as an attack on me or my operation...

    garments are rated and timed by a formula called Standard Allowed Minutes (SAM)

    Most complicated ski jackets are at least 100 SAM
    Some with high detail can be double

    the proper way to make garments is through "piece work" not one person does it all
    one person doing it all is called a sample., or made to measure....

    I went to a USA sourcing event in 2016 with Asian manufacturers represented so that I could understand what I have been up against price wise..its not pretty .....

    Every single seam taped ski jacket with hood or pants made in China whose (sp?) booth I visited quoted me $25 for a completed garment (non branded fabric, zippers , etc) for 1000 quantity and they did not want any orders less than 1000.

    So, to land this in the USA is probably about $35 ( freight, tariffs, tax, etc) let's call it $37 to keep it interesting. So basically any generic fabric zipped garment is costing the brand $37 ish

    [down = different bird lol - takes tube filling machines and sealed down room...]
    if your brand does not use certified feathers you are probably wearing chicken feathers....seriously....

    When you add gore, eVent, neoshell you are adding about $75-125 to the price of a garment

    YKK non aquaseal zippers would add about $5-10 (for jackets only)

    So to sum it up a brand selling a generic seam taped wpb hooded garment could be in for as little as $37 each landed in USA made in Asia

    [just to keep it interesting.....Softshell non hooded casual jackets, non seam taped in non branded fabric an zippers can be had for $7-9]


    If you use Gore-tex bought from Gore, you have to use a certified Gore seam taping machine and their brand of seam tape as well as have the design approved by Gore corporate.....

    If China factory owners are selling jackets for $25 and then the owners come over here and buy Beverly Hills mansions for $30 million, it tells you how much they are making.....a lot....this means the workers are getting very very very little, the streams are polluted and the heaps of cuttings are buried in giant pits and the runoff from polyesters, nylons, dwr's are introduced into the village water table.....yep

    village you say?? yes, I asked a booth that had a factory picture on their curtain booth wall if that was there factory....they said new factory, I said next to old one?, they said no 2 hours by plane, and 4 hours by car...I said that sounds like some tiny remote village......they said YES! YES! that is everyone every brand you are wearing except mine and a couple/few other domestic makers that are taking advantage of that situation I just described....

    45 Minute bet
    your lady, and respect to her, cannot make one of my Antero 2+ jackets in 45 minutes., and Im willing to bet $5000 but she has to put up $5000 to take the bet. It would also have to be seam taped and sewn at the same level quality that we finish at...but the other non static issue is that we go through rounds of QC that I have created to keep warranty to a minimum....most cheap Asian garments do not get this , and that is why they tend to fall apart....we are not perfect, but an ounce of prevention and all helps....not to mention that I have $25,000+ in a single pattern development that has been added onto over the years.....so she may produce a jacket , but it could come apart soon thereafter....how do you compare apples to apples? you really can't

    important factors
    where will she get her pattern
    who will develop
    patterns are more than fabric breaks and colors they are technical
    China factories steal their other customer's patterns and offer them to people like me...when I was at the sourcing event LOL
    where will she get her seam taping machine
    where will she get her seam tape
    where will she get her grommets, cord, cord locks, cord lock rings, pellon, zippers etc etc
    are these things figured into her 45 minutes or just sewing? how bout cutting? most big brands have multiple fabrics and over 50 pieces in their patterns....some have over 100....I bet she cant cut a jacket in 45 minutes...in fact its a suckers bet....she cannot cut 50 pieces in an hour...without hacking it out and screwing up seam allowances , etc....

    i could go on and on
    ive gotten a 10 year MBA in domestic making of complicated garments....I know nothing about Asia except for some due diligence and research....

    but most of these USA brand companies that are making ski jackets are not involved in how arm holes or necklines get designed, etc....they are just placing fabric breaks and colors using illustrator programs and sending it to a pattern maker in china...and they have an "agent" that represents them bringing it all together....

    most people/brands/companies that produce in Asia cannot do so in the USA....i know most of the players who do, who try, who fail.....and those who do and are not profitable....

    making is sadly only one component to consider on your road to success....

    procurement, distribution, marketing, sales, promotion, warehousing, machine acquistion, real estate, financing etc etc etc.... are all key components...
    My Company: Made in Colorado SKi Clothing- check it out

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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by subtle plague View Post
    can i get a jacket with the american flag and a Monster Truck steered by a bald eagle with AR 15s in the claws shooting lynyrd skynyrd lyrics?
    I'll see what I can do.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiCol View Post

    So to sum it up a brand selling a generic seam taped wpb hooded garment could be in for as little as $37 each landed in USA made in Asia
    fuckin nailed it!
    PE, Mechanical Engineering
    University of Bridger Bowl Alumnus
    Alpental Creeper

  5. #55
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    Just on the expensive vs. cheap jacket margins - I would assume it’s actually pretty non-linear at low price points vs. high. Low price points you’re competing on price and have less ability to pass along markups because the consumer doesn’t care which shitty $100 jacket they buy. In contrast, at higher price points you have feature and brand differentiation potential so people care less about $10 of markup. I would assume that the only components that don’t change too much as a percentage are actually retailer markups but if anyone has data pointing in the other direction I’d be interested.

    Re: Canada Goose, they’re trying to capture the MAP vs. wholesale markup and disintermediate premium department stores. It’s that simple. What is confusing to you about it? They think they have brand value sufficient to generate foot traffic at their stores and they have fairly few SKUs, so the logistics aren’t that bad. They are clearly correct about brand value, down jackets aren’t that expensive to make.

  6. #56
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    MiCol - pure owes you a six pack or a ride on his chinese milfstress for that. And 37 is clearly some kinda crazy Fibonacci key shit. Probably Masonic

  7. #57
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    In a month I hope to be able to tell you how much it cost to get a jacket and pants made. 10 or so years ago I got a custom sized softshell coat and pants from beyond clothing. I've got an atypical build so off the shelf stuff doesn't fit. I loved my coat and pants. Custom fit was fantastic. Quality was fair, had a few seams come undone and had to replace the zipper. Now they are worn out. Ordered fabric this morning. Next week I'll stop at a few places to see how much it will cost to copy the coat and pants I have. Hopefully it won't be too much. I suspect the softshell is more forgiving and my old stuff doesn't have taped seams etc.

  8. #58
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    Does the seamstress have an army of sharks and squirrels with laser mounted sergers at her disposal?
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norseman View Post
    fuckin nailed it!
    I am amazed and scared of your infinite knowledge at the same time.

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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiCol View Post
    read this with this: im not taking any of what you (op) are stating or asking as an attack on me or my operation...

    garments are rated and timed by a formula called Standard Allowed Minutes (SAM)

    Most complicated ski jackets are at least 100 SAM
    Some with high detail can be double

    the proper way to make garments is through "piece work" not one person does it all
    one person doing it all is called a sample., or made to measure....

    I went to a USA sourcing event in 2016 with Asian manufacturers represented so that I could understand what I have been up against price wise..its not pretty .....

    Every single seam taped ski jacket with hood or pants made in China whose (sp?) booth I visited quoted me $25 for a completed garment (non branded fabric, zippers , etc) for 1000 quantity and they did not want any orders less than 1000.

    So, to land this in the USA is probably about $35 ( freight, tariffs, tax, etc) let's call it $37 to keep it interesting. So basically any generic fabric zipped garment is costing the brand $37 ish

    [down = different bird lol - takes tube filling machines and sealed down room...]
    if your brand does not use certified feathers you are probably wearing chicken feathers....seriously....

    When you add gore, eVent, neoshell you are adding about $75-125 to the price of a garment

    YKK non aquaseal zippers would add about $5-10 (for jackets only)

    So to sum it up a brand selling a generic seam taped wpb hooded garment could be in for as little as $37 each landed in USA made in Asia

    [just to keep it interesting.....Softshell non hooded casual jackets, non seam taped in non branded fabric an zippers can be had for $7-9]


    If you use Gore-tex bought from Gore, you have to use a certified Gore seam taping machine and their brand of seam tape as well as have the design approved by Gore corporate.....

    If China factory owners are selling jackets for $25 and then the owners come over here and buy Beverly Hills mansions for $30 million, it tells you how much they are making.....a lot....this means the workers are getting very very very little, the streams are polluted and the heaps of cuttings are buried in giant pits and the runoff from polyesters, nylons, dwr's are introduced into the village water table.....yep

    village you say?? yes, I asked a booth that had a factory picture on their curtain booth wall if that was there factory....they said new factory, I said next to old one?, they said no 2 hours by plane, and 4 hours by car...I said that sounds like some tiny remote village......they said YES! YES! that is everyone every brand you are wearing except mine and a couple/few other domestic makers that are taking advantage of that situation I just described....

    45 Minute bet
    your lady, and respect to her, cannot make one of my Antero 2+ jackets in 45 minutes., and Im willing to bet $5000 but she has to put up $5000 to take the bet. It would also have to be seam taped and sewn at the same level quality that we finish at...but the other non static issue is that we go through rounds of QC that I have created to keep warranty to a minimum....most cheap Asian garments do not get this , and that is why they tend to fall apart....we are not perfect, but an ounce of prevention and all helps....not to mention that I have $25,000+ in a single pattern development that has been added onto over the years.....so she may produce a jacket , but it could come apart soon thereafter....how do you compare apples to apples? you really can't

    important factors
    where will she get her pattern
    who will develop
    patterns are more than fabric breaks and colors they are technical
    China factories steal their other customer's patterns and offer them to people like me...when I was at the sourcing event LOL
    where will she get her seam taping machine
    where will she get her seam tape
    where will she get her grommets, cord, cord locks, cord lock rings, pellon, zippers etc etc
    are these things figured into her 45 minutes or just sewing? how bout cutting? most big brands have multiple fabrics and over 50 pieces in their patterns....some have over 100....I bet she cant cut a jacket in 45 minutes...in fact its a suckers bet....she cannot cut 50 pieces in an hour...without hacking it out and screwing up seam allowances , etc....

    i could go on and on
    ive gotten a 10 year MBA in domestic making of complicated garments....I know nothing about Asia except for some due diligence and research....

    but most of these USA brand companies that are making ski jackets are not involved in how arm holes or necklines get designed, etc....they are just placing fabric breaks and colors using illustrator programs and sending it to a pattern maker in china...and they have an "agent" that represents them bringing it all together....

    most people/brands/companies that produce in Asia cannot do so in the USA....i know most of the players who do, who try, who fail.....and those who do and are not profitable....

    making is sadly only one component to consider on your road to success....

    procurement, distribution, marketing, sales, promotion, warehousing, machine acquistion, real estate, financing etc etc etc.... are all key components...


    Wow! Thanks for chiming in and sharing your knowledge and experience. Indeed, nothing I said was meant as an attack on you or your operation. This is the first time I have even heard of your brand. The website is nice and you have some nice designs. I wish you much success!

    I don't think my Mistress would be up for the bet considering that she probably doesn't have the specialized equipment she would need, and like you said, a SAMPLE is one thing, a retail ready quality controlled production piece is another.

    If China factory owners are selling jackets for $25 and then the owners come over here and buy Beverly Hills mansions for $30 million, it tells you how much they are making.....a lot....this means the workers are getting very very very little, the streams are polluted and the heaps of cuttings are buried in giant pits and the runoff from polyesters, nylons, dwr's are introduced into the village water table.....yep
    YEP. That's the world we live in. And the profits of the major brands speak to the margins that are, in most businesses, other-worldly. Amer, Anta, etc are making money right now hand--over-fist. Chip Wilson didn't just buy a large chunk of Anta stock just to make 10% per year on his investment. He wants 10X in 5 years. That's the gold that entrances people to invest in major brands with high-end products.

    If we look at the five adopter categories — innovators, early adopters, early majority, late majority, and laggards. Some apparel brands are definitely for the Innovators and Early Adopters. They will always pay a premium. What is fascinating me, is that the parent companies now have so many brands under their belt, that they can shift the price-points for the entire industry to their favor.

    They can literally, move the price of the highest profile brands to an Unobtainium price and move all the lesser brands in the same direction, thereby shifting the price of the entire sports apparel market in favor of higher prices and profits. It's not extra-corporate pricing, there is the possibility and opportunity of price-fixing withing a market segment.

    It is like a company owning Nike and simultaneously owning PAYLESS shoes. They then make Nike 20% more expensive and same with PAYLESS. The consumer scratches their head and notes that that entire sports shoe market is more expensive than it was before. Or something like that, but applied to Ski Apparel.

    So, to land this in the USA is probably about $35 ( freight, tariffs, tax, etc) let's call it $37 to keep it interesting. So basically any generic fabric zipped garment is costing the brand $37 ish
    This sounds reasonable. After all, the non-negotiated price on their generic seller portal is $52 for 800 pieces. And less for more qty. A negotiated price, with a supplier relationship will drive that down a bit further. Whoever called $37 has good sense. I'll shop with them anytime and make sure I bring my wife's coupon book to save even more.

    I'm not letting the big brands off the hook yet. I'm going to plumb the depths of their P&L statements and find out for realZ, how much they pay their staff, what their cost-of-goods-sold is and find out if it is true that the product is costing the sum total of all inputs.

    OR are ski consumers getting shafted and thrown down double-black steep priced goods not realizing that a huge chunk is landing in the pockets of investors and the wealthy 0.01 %.

    BTW - whoever suggested I sound like Trump. God Bless him, but I'm honestly more a a middle-road politic and I do like BERNIE as well. If Bernie ran, he probably would have taken the house. Let's not go there.

    I think mags should supports mags and I'll be taking another look at your gear in the future. Thanks again for chiming in. Please feel free to share and or continue this conversation in any way.

    And like I said, although my OP is spirited, I am without judgement and without prejudice towards any brand and regarding any product. Just cause it is expensive or cheap doesn't mean that it isn't made honestly and with integrity and with regard to consumer sensibilities.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Does the seamstress have an army of sharks and squirrels with laser mounted sergers at her disposal?
    Who do you think does all the work?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    I'm not letting the big brands off the hook yet. I'm going to plumb the depths of their P&L statements and find out for realZ, how much they pay their staff, what their cost-of-goods-sold is and find out if it is true that the product is costing the sum total of all inputs.

    OR are ski consumers getting shafted and thrown down double-black steep priced goods not realizing that a huge chunk is landing in the pockets of investors and the wealthy 0.01 %.
    I can save you some time - Amer when it was independent had ~45% gross margins, this is pretty similar to Columbia, VF Corp (owns TNF among other things). This is what you were focusing on in this thread.

    You just switched to discussing whether Amer had unduly high bottom line margins. This is a strange concept. Because there are a lot of costs to designing and selling stuff other than manufacturing the physical product, those margins for Amer are about 5%. 5% is somewhat lower than Columbia and VF Corp which each have larger revenue to distribute the fixed costs over.

    Retail brands are pretty simple animals - they have excellent economics when they're growing sales to leverage fixed cost base but otherwise are pretty unexciting. You're making this sound somehow nefarious but I think you just don't understand how the business side of this works at all.

  13. #63
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    You do realize PG is a troll? And not worth getting into it with him.

    www.apriliaforum.com

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  14. #64
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    Name:  E10A961A-CB27-4042-B12C-02FBC726FDBB.jpeg
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly View Post
    I can save you some time - Amer when it was independent had ~45% gross margins, this is pretty similar to Columbia, VF Corp (owns TNF among other things). This is what you were focusing on in this thread.

    You just switched to discussing whether Amer had unduly high bottom line margins. This is a strange concept. Because there are a lot of costs to designing and selling stuff other than manufacturing the physical product, those margins for Amer are about 5%. 5% is somewhat lower than Columbia and VF Corp which each have larger revenue to distribute the fixed costs over.

    Retail brands are pretty simple animals - they have excellent economics when they're growing sales to leverage fixed cost base but otherwise are pretty unexciting. You're making this sound somehow nefarious but I think you just don't understand how the business side of this works at all.
    Where do you get the 5% from?

    According to their own statements :

    "February 7, 2019... Solid Q4 closed yet another year of record sales and profits"

    But that's only 5% you say. Let's see where you get that from.




    "You just switched to discussing whether Amer had unduly high bottom line margins. This is a strange concept. "

    Well, I wouldn't phrase it quite like that. Maybe, 'exceeded the perceived consumer value equation' is a better way to say it. Maybe, 'overly focused on shareholder returns' is another angle.

    I don't see it as a strange concept because consumer perception is everything.




    Take this climbing forum conversation for example. Excerpts as such:


    ...comparing Arcteryx's Alpha SV, Mountain Equipments Changabang and Mountain Hardware's Drystein II jacket, and I have reached the following conclusion...

    ...They are all superb jackets, and there is no difference whatsoever in performance. There is however a big difference in price. You can pick up a Changabang or Drystein for around the £300 mark, whereas an Alpha SV will cost twice that.

    I realise the ME and MH jackets are made in China and the Arctetyx in Canada - so there is a difference in manufacturing costs - but irrespective of this, I still think the Arctetyx prices are silly.

    I can only presume that Arctetyx's pricing structure is made up by someone in a dark room listening to a Captain Beefheart album whilst enjoying a very long smoke?
    and such:

    That said, MH and ME are actually directly benefiting currently on the high price tag from 'Ryx. As 'Ryx is one of the key developers of new technologies when it comes to alpine clothing (welding instead of sowing, new Gore stuff, thin seam tapes etc.).

    Still, I do agree that without gettin' 'Ryx stuff on sale, pro or shop form... well, they are bloody spendy and bang for bucks, way way over priced.

    That said, you'll get a lot more bang for bucks than MHW or ME with Simond or Craghopper .
    and such:

    I wear high end, branded gear not because it makes me feel like the sponsored athlete I patently am not, but in order to experience the best in protection, breathability, light weight, durability, design or performance. And it adds to my pleasure on the hill in a way that a lower spec garment would not. I might only climb Scottish IV, but damn I'm comfortable, and I can stay calmer and more rational when my gear is working for me rather than irritating with its minor cost-saving deficiencies.

    PS My wife also comments positively on my Arcteryx jackets in a way never mirrored by similar appreciation of ME or Montane efforts so you can probably add extra sex to the list of benefits

    "it adds to my pleasure on the hill in a way that a lower spec garment would not. "
    Ha ha. I'll use that one when the wife asks about my gear purchases.

    There is a lot of humor towards various brands in that UK Climbing forum. Some of them drank the cool-aide. Some didn't. But they don't mind rationalizing the value equations - as it should be.



    All I know is, my extended family comes to visit and when we go skiing, all the stores are selling VERY expensive clothing and the ticket prices are OUTRAGEOUS and the food ain't cheep and the price on accommodations has gone through the roof.

    I think the value equation is very important if the sport is to grow and it is to be enjoyed by the less well financially endowed. A lot of the best athletes, the notable ones, come from humble origins. We don't want to lose them in the future race to reward shareholders that are already extremely wealthy.

    AFTERTHOUGHT

    The first review for this jacket on [omitted] website talks about how the reviewer wore it throughout one of coldest winters in Canadian Rockies. But this jacket has just been released. Hmm...
    Last edited by puregravity; 10-31-2019 at 05:57 PM.

  16. #66
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    At risk of outing myself as an accounting dentist, total reported revenue in 2018 was 2,678.2 million euros. Net profit after tax was 124.9 million euros. 124.9/2678.2 = 4.7% and this is their "net income margin/earnings margin". I have no desire to engage in a more detailed review of Amer's financial statements to tell you whether their adjustments to this number are in fact fair, they propose some of them and if you accept the adjustments you come up with 141.6 of net profit for a 5.3% margin.

    You can have record sales and profits with a low margin simply by selling more stuff and, in fact, Amer did sell about 100 million euros more of stuff in 2018 than 2017. If you care enough about this to bother thinking about it for yourself, feel free to read the pdf linked from press release you posted.

    It's fallacious to focus on Q4 margin by itself for almost all clothing brands because they sell more stuff from September to December than they do in 1Q, 2Q or 3Q individually. As a result, I did not look at 4Q margin by itself, you really need to look at the full year.

    I think it's dumb to focus on the relationship that number has to jacket markups because it depends so heavily on how many jackets you sell. If it costs $100,000 to design a jacket and they sell 1,000 of them with a hundred dollar markup they break even. What do you want them to do if they end up selling 10,000 jackets instead of 1,000? Send everyone who bought a jacket a $90 rebate? What if nobody buys the jacket?

    MiCol's idea is really interesting because he's trying to find a way to make money with much higher cost of goods. I found his reply interesting enough I'm trying to help you out, even if you are a troll.

    Edit: they refer to net income as net result.

  17. #67
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    Thanks. I was looking at this from the 2017 report and wondered where uou got 5% from when it looks higher:

    Name:  avtbrd2.png
Views: 142
Size:  26.6 KB

    For clarity, Amer Sports isn't reporting just Jackets. That's from all their brands. They have a lot of sports concerns. The growth almost came entirely from one brand.



    Quote Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly View Post
    MiCol's idea is really interesting because he's trying to find a way to make money with much higher cost of goods. I found his reply interesting enough I'm trying to help you out, even if you are a troll.
    I also support what MoCol is doing, because supporting the local economy is good in my opinion and even if there are more profits and better costing to do it some other ways, I think that a DIVERSE and STABLE economy is more SUSTAINABLE. People seem to have forgotten that in the search for short-term profits.



    Back to Dead Bird.

    Right. So ... let's suppose that you start a sporting goods company.
    BLEEDING EDGE tech and designs
    plus
    MADE IN CANADA

    Now, you grow on good sales (solid designs and reputation)
    and grow (economies of scale)
    and grow (yet more economies of scale)
    Then get bought out (2004 Amer acquires your brand)
    and with access to their supply chain management and sales channels
    you grow (economies of scale)
    and grow (economies of scale)
    so much so, in fact that the parent company reports that their latest sales increase and profitability is due to you.


    NOW ... would you think that prices go up or down in this scenario?


    Usually, with economies of scale, and supply channel integration,
    and supply chain movement to lower cost jurisdictions,
    with even lower taxes,
    IT MIGHT BE REASONABLE TO EXPECT,
    that retail pricing actually comes down.

    What do you think? Is this, are these, unreasonable assumptions?



    PS - I don't care what you or vt-freeheel or who-the-fuck-ever thinks I am. If you think I'm a troll, I feel sorry for you for responding. IF they think I'm a troll, then they are too because they came here to post their clever troll-art. If you think someone is trolling you, then get the fuck out, visit some other threads on TGR and make a difference in the world with your POSITIVE CONTENT and DISCUSSION. Enough said about that. And even if I am a troll, a good discussion is a good discussion and it needs to be had. I have trolled on TGR, almost everyone here has if they are honest. This is an HONEST DISCUSSION as far as I am concerned.
    Last edited by puregravity; 11-01-2019 at 02:34 PM. Reason: to re-post picture

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive View Post
    I worked for a very large ski clothing manufacturer more than a decade ago (so take this with a huge grain of salt). If I remember right factories were paid anywhere between 1/10th and 1/5 the final retail price to produce garments.
    What did you do for them? What was your role?
    How did that vary depending on where the products were made, or what their retail price-point was?

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    I don't think the person sewing a jacket makes a whole garment, they sew/cut a part of it and it goes to the next station
    That touches on something that I wonder. I remember reading somewhere that some companies were transitioning away from piecework to better quality (and better working conditions) through individuals manufacturing life-cycle ownership. This isn't where, but it touches on the subject a bit. I'm not sure it relates to the sports apparel industry, but it might. I do recall something about this as per apparel. In any case:



    The rise and fall of piecework - Incidence of piecework has significantly reduced in advanced industrialized economies—has its decline gone too far?
    https://wol.iza.org/uploads/articles...-piecework.pdf

    Up until the late 1960s, there was a high incidence of piecework in manufacturing sectors of advanced economies.
    Among other traditional advantages to workers and employers, piecework resulted in higher productivity and wages than
    comparable timework. Yet the last 50 years have witnessed a dramatic decline in piecework. Major challenges include
    advances in production methods and technology, as well as low labor and production costs in emerging economies. There
    is little call for policy intervention to reverse the declining trend, since disadvantages of piecework now overwhelmingly
    predominate


    So, I wonder...
    Is all apparel of the type that qualifies as high-end sports piecework?
    Or do factories exist with employees that are cross-trained such that they can see a garment from start to finish?

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    Thanks. I was looking at this from the 2017 report and wondered where uou got 5% from when it looks higher:




    For clarity, Amer Sports isn't reporting just Jackets. That's from all their brands. They have a lot of sports concerns. The growth almost came entirely from one brand.





    I also support what MoCol is doing, because supporting the local economy is good in my opinion and even if there are more profits and better costing to do it some other ways, I think that a DIVERSE and STABLE economy is more SUSTAINABLE. People seem to have forgotten that in the search for short-term profits.



    Back to Dead Bird.

    Right. So ... let's suppose that you start a sporting goods company.
    BLEEDING EDGE tech and designs
    plus
    MADE IN CANADA

    Now, you grow on good sales (solid designs and reputation)
    and grow (economies of scale)
    and grow (yet more economies of scale)
    Then get bought out (2004 Amer acquires your brand)
    and with access to their supply chain management and sales channels
    you grow (economies of scale)
    and grow (economies of scale)
    so much so, in fact that the parent company reports that their latest sales increase and profitability is due to you.


    NOW ... would you think that prices go up or down in this scenario?


    Usually, with economies of scale, and supply channel integration,
    and supply chain movement to lower cost jurisdictions,
    with even lower taxes,
    IT MIGHT BE REASONABLE TO EXPECT,
    that retail pricing actually comes down.

    What do you think? Is this, are these, unreasonable assumptions?



    PS - I don't care what you or vt-freeheel or who-the-fuck-ever thinks I am. If you think I'm a troll, I feel sorry for you for responding. IF they think I'm a troll, then they are too because they came here to post their clever troll-art. If you think someone is trolling you, then get the fuck out, visit some other threads on TGR and make a difference in the world with your POSITIVE CONTENT and DISCUSSION. Enough said about that. And even if I am a troll, a good discussion is a good discussion and it needs to be had. I have trolled on TGR, almost everyone here has if they are honest. This is an HONEST DISCUSSION as far as I am concerned.
    You seem like a troll because of how you’re provoking with your seemingly deliberate ignorance. As should be obvious, in a competitive market (which can be compromised in numerous ways) for essentials, market mechanisms should maintain the relationship between the cost of production and what people are prepared to pay. However in the case of luxury goods (tulips, diamonds, or dead bird jackets) in a consumerist economy, this relationship (costrice) is subject to unlimited creative manipulation.

    If there’s a lucrative market for producing $1000 ski jackets (which cost a fraction of that to produce) that bolster a bunch of status obsessed overpaid professional’s self esteem, then companies are going to compete to project (which is going to cost them) that prestige and capture those sales. Critiquing this isn’t going to change it, but being aware of it enables one to circumvent the nonsense and acquire (buying used, on sales, and utilizing pro-purchase programs) all the gear one needs at something closer to the “true” cost, whatever that means.

    I’m interested in paying as little as possible for the highest performing gear that enables me to stay warm and dry while skiing powder. What’s your point?

  21. #71
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    why are you people tossing the ball back?

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    $700 Goretex Jacket
    Retailer bought for 45% MAP : $315
    Brand makes 20% profit: $250 total cost to produce
    Factory Paid $70 to produce and ship to distribution center: $180 to cover:
    Goretex fees, R&D, Design Team, Marketing, Accounting, Sales, HR, Lease and Utilities, taxes and management.

    This assumes the company doesn’t have any of their own capital involved in production. Which then assumes the $70 includes all that plus the sales, production, engineering, management, accounting, taxes, material costs, training, and goretex licensing.

    45 minutes a jacket is slow as fuck.
    Isn't there also some built in "warranty replacement" cost for the Arc's of the world?
    It makes perfect sense...until you think about it.

    No thanks. I'll stick with porn. - Benny

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    What did you do for them? What was your role?
    How did that vary depending on where the products were made, or what their retail price-point was?
    I was the VP of moustache twirling and monacle cleaning for a group of tuxedo wearing capitalists hell bent on squeezing every penny out of consumers.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive View Post
    I was the VP of moustache twirling and monacle cleaning for a group of tuxedo wearing capitalists hell bent on squeezing every penny out of consumers.
    Did they ever hire your replacement? I'd be fantastic at that job!
    It makes perfect sense...until you think about it.

    No thanks. I'll stick with porn. - Benny

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
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    105
    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    Thanks. I was looking at this from the 2017 report and wondered where uou got 5% from when it looks higher:




    For clarity, Amer Sports isn't reporting just Jackets. That's from all their brands. They have a lot of sports concerns. The growth almost came entirely from one brand.
    I can't see a picture. Just so you know, I'm starting to wonder if you can do basic math because the same PDF includes 2017 revenue of 2,574.6 million euros and adjusted net income of 136.9 million. 136.9/2574.6 = 5.3%. This is almost identical to the reported result for 2018. If you really want to "'to plumb the depths of their P&L statements and find out for realZ, how much they pay their staff, what their cost-of-goods-sold is and find out if it is true that the product is costing the sum total of all inputs" I'm happy to help you a bit to pay forward what I learn in other areas from this forum but at least do the simple shit for yourself.

    Incidentally, professional level databases for this show Amer's highest net income margin since 2006 is right around 5.7% (incidentally this is for 2017 and I suspect relies on slightly different adjustments than Amer's reported financials in the pdf based on general experience with how this works).

    And no shit it's not just jackets, I used that as an example to try and make it concrete for you because you seem to be having some issues with abstract reasoning. In reality, the fact it's not just jackets makes it even harder to get from Amer's financial results to the number you claim to care about which is how much it costs them to make the jacket they sell for $1000 or whatever.

    The rest of your comments - I have no idea what Arcteryx charged for jackets in 2004. However, due to the gradual march of inflation I would expect that they would charge about 1.35x as much today to simply to tread water on a purchasing power basis. If they spent some money trying to make their jackets better in the interim I would expect they would charge more than 1.35x as much. In actual reality it may be the case that because of market dynamics dead bird can't pass along all of their inflationary costs to consumer so prices went up by less than 1.35x, but that's essentially equivalent to a dollar depreciation led discount. If you personally happen to making the same number of dollars you were in 2004, I don't think dead bird is accountable for your poor life choices and somehow obligated to sell at a ski bum discount unless you get a pro code.

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