East MF Coast 19/20.

[dangur]

Found the news story:

https://www.unionleader.com/news/saf...84240d2a2.html

[jhyatt]

All of the recent pics from Washington got the better of me, so I headed up there on Saturday.

At HoJo's I met a couple who warned me of an unprepared-looking gaggle of newschoolers who were heading up to the bowl ahead of me. The woman said, presciently, 'I'm actually really worried about them. I think they might get hurt.'

I briefly considered going after Hillman's rather than Left Gully, but the route looked like a long climb up a flowing streambed to get to what was likely very undermined snow. So I decided to take my chances with the mob.

It was almost a bad decision! As I traversed across the bottom of the edge of the snow in the bowl (as quickly as I could, because there were people above me), a climbing snowboarder lost his footing and started to slide. He didn't stop. He blew past about 20' behind me, and crashed into the scrub below. Amazingly, he found the only rock-free spot on the Rock Pile, and walked away unharmed. Lucky.

When I got into Left Gully, I had it all to myself. Thank God. I skied 3 laps in what was remained of its snow; about 300 vertical feet. Unfortunately, the connection to the rest of the bowl seemed to have just melted out in the past day or 2.

When I got back down to the floor of the bowl, I saw that there was an injury. One of that party of youngsters had apparently wrecked himself, and couple of experienced, good Samaritan skiers got him stabilized and secured in a sled from the first aid cache. At that point, they were all hanging out, waiting for rescue. Hopefully the kid is ok.

Anyway - I skied on June 27th in New England. Like, real skiing, not sideslipping on a patch. That's a first for me. So... kinda worth it.

Attachment 333016

Nice!

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[Jonathan S.]

[....]Unfortunately, the connection to the rest of the bowl seemed to have just melted out in the past day or 2.[...]

When I was there Thursday, I was thinking that the very same connection would melt out in just a day or two -- looks like we were both right!

Some details here on the injury and extrication:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/8625...11559728885695

[dangur]

When I was there Thursday, I was thinking that the very same connection would melt out in just a day or two -- looks like we were both right!

Some details here on the injury and extrication:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/8625...11559728885695

I actually follow you on Strava, and saw your comments on that ski. It gave me a teeny bit of hope that i'd be able to do a continuous run to the bottom of the bowl. No luck!

[retirwntm]

Following JS on Strava is way better than following him in real life


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[jackstraw]

When I was there Thursday, I was thinking that the very same connection would melt out in just a day or two -- looks like we were both right!

Some details here on the injury and extrication:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/8625...11559728885695

FB sucks and linking it sucks even worse. Take a lap

[Jonathan S.]

FB sucks and linking it sucks even worse. Take a lap

Agreed on FB in general, but that link has some valuable info for anyone interested in the perils of late-(late-) season skiing in Tucks, and the admirable response by the bystanders.
(And yes, I do intend on taking more ski laps this summer!)

[dangur]

(And yes, I do intend on taking more ski laps this summer!)

Nice! Keep posting. I'm impressed by how long this thread has stayed alive with true East Coast skiing.

[sea2ski ver3.0]

So who remembers Mr. # key?

[sea2ski ver3.0]

Glad to see mags are still out there getting some.

[jackstraw]

Agreed on FB in general, but that link has some valuable info for anyone interested in the perils of late-(late-) season skiing in Tucks, and the admirable response by the bystanders.
(And yes, I do intend on taking more ski laps this summer!)

I'll have to take your word for it, but I'm guessing its nothing new. Maybe good for the noobs. Or some fancy app shit.

[Jonathan S.]

So who remembers Mr. # key?

You mean Mister F'ing Lucky who survived an inverted immersion in cold rushing water in Turkey Chute on June 4 of 2005?

[Jonathan S.]

I'll have to take your word for it, but I'm guessing its nothing new. Maybe good for the noobs. Or some fancy app shit.

Pretty much a textbook late-(late-)season Tucks incident: hike up the steep snow (kind of the remains of upper lower Chute) ... no crampons ... in soft snowboard boots ... no sharps ... no pack ... placing his snowboard ahead of himself horizontally in the snow as a self-belay technique ... which obviously isn't much of a self-belay .... and also makes the footing less secure on a pitch like that since you're leaning into the hill so much ... then take a slide for life with zero runout in that part of the bowl ... straight into boulders (and some trees that would also hurt at speed).

[BGSTi_403]

So this is coming out at the end of the summer:

https://www.presidentialskiing.com

Looks a bit like the David Goodman book in terms of format, but without the extensive historical context for each line...

[Jonathan S.]

So this is coming out at the end of the summer:

https://www.presidentialskiing.com

Looks a bit like the David Goodman book in terms of format, but without the extensive historical context for each line...

When it rains it pours.
(Often literally in the East, even during the middle of the winter, but that's another matter.)
Anyway, by that I mean (and total coincidence) this map is also coming out later in the year:
https://backcountryskimaps.com/produ...dential-range/

I've provided a lot of feedback for the map, and a little bit for the book, but I have not yet seen anywhere near full drafts of either.
The annotated pictures in the new book definitely go beyond anything in any of the Goodman editions though.

Oh, and to save time for all you critics, yes, we already know that you think any such maps, guidebooks, etc. are all so horrible because all your favorite spots (especially those you put so much time and effort into a few thousands years ago in getting the retreating glaciers to carve out those cirques) will be totally overrun with hordes of ill-prepared newbies, etc., and that instead everyone should go exploring without the aid of any person-to-person beta of any form, relying only instead on paper topo map and magnetic compass.

[retirwntm]

JS - it seems to me more people are going to the Whites more often than just the spring tux season these days. I haven’t really been up there the last few years but Is that true from your observations? Assume you’re still teaching classes up there and getting out often.


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[Jonathan S.]

JS - it seems to me more people are going to the Whites more often than just the spring tux season these days. I haven’t really been up there the last few years but Is that true from your observations? Assume you’re still teaching classes up there and getting out often.

Two places have definitely changed:

• Slackfest seemed to be an obscure novelty when I first did it in 2001, but already by 2004 it had become really popular.
• Cog to GG can sometimes feel almost like Tux, but that's b/c of infrastructure improvements (winter plowing of base road, clearing of Cog right-of-way below Waumbek Switch, de facto ski trail for summit powerline between Waumbek Switch and Jacob's Ladder).

Otherwise, I suppose you could say that I see an average of 10x the number of people in some other places, but that's ten times the usual count of zero, so maybe I sometimes see a few people where I would have previously seen nobody.

Also, Hermit Lake usage is actually down -- I ran those #s to assist in a 2018 ESAW presentation, since we were planning to normalize winter backcountry incidents by usage, but the denominator really surprised all us.

In general, I'm puzzled where all these newly bought AT setups get used. Okay, my skimo races don't look anything like when I first started organized them, so that has definitely changed. And ski resorts, yes, that's totally different than before. Maybe I'm just insulated from it at Greylock, which is still the domain of postholers with alpine downhill gear.

[cat in january]

JS I have no worries about hoarding secret places. I do have concerns about good skiers with little to no avy, winter hiking, crampons skills venturing into terrain over their head.

[Jonathan S.]

JS I have no worries about hoarding secret places. I do have concerns about good skiers with little to no avy, winter hiking, crampons skills venturing into terrain over their head.

True, but -- I highly doubt a guide book or map will change that.
If anything, those products probably appeal more to skiers who already have some idea what they are doing, or are at least open to learning.
Unfortunately the avy center has taken down the list of SAR call-outs.
(Only avy are currently posted, although I coulda sworn the complete list was up there in early June when I was trying to analyze how often rescues have been needed in Tux during May.)
But I don't think any noticeable uptick has occurred in recent years.
Focusing only on the 17 skier deaths in the Presidentials, all on Mt Washington, April of last year was the first since 2004.
The potential is certainly greater now, given the increased overall #s and the increase in skiing during winter conditions.
But of the five deaths between 1996 and 2004 (very little info for most of the 11 before then), four were from "you've got to be kidding me" circumstances (and the fifth was taking on about 1000% more risk for 100 more vertical feet) , so once again, not like a guide book or map is going to change much of anything.

[ex-powderbroker]

JS I have no worries about hoarding secret places. I do have concerns about good skiers with little to no avy, winter hiking, crampons skills venturing into terrain over their head.

Forget good skiers for a moment.

When I took my avy class in the bowl there was a dude that didn't understand basic layering. He had a cotton t-shirt and a large down puffy on. On the way up he realized he had soaked through the shirt and took off the jacket. 15 minutes into watching Marc lecture up there he realized he was way too cold to be in the mountains anymore with his soaked gear. We gave him some suggestions and offered gear but he put on his snowboard and bounced.

That is the level of people that rescuers are dealing with in the mountains.

Fortunately, people learn too. Most of the time.

[jhyatt]

Two places have definitely changed:

• Slackfest seemed to be an obscure novelty when I first did it in 2001, but already by 2004 it had become really popular.
• Cog to GG can sometimes feel almost like Tux, but that's b/c of infrastructure improvements (winter plowing of base road, clearing of Cog right-of-way below Waumbek Switch, de facto ski trail for summit powerline between Waumbek Switch and Jacob's Ladder).

Otherwise, I suppose you could say that I see an average of 10x the number of people in some other places, but that's ten times the usual count of zero, so maybe I sometimes see a few people where I would have previously seen nobody.

Also, Hermit Lake usage is actually down -- I ran those #s to assist in a 2018 ESAW presentation, since we were planning to normalize winter backcountry incidents by usage, but the denominator really surprised all us.

In general, I'm puzzled where all these newly bought AT setups get used. Okay, my skimo races don't look anything like when I first started organized them, so that has definitely changed. And ski resorts, yes, that's totally different than before. Maybe I'm just insulated from it at Greylock, which is still the domain of postholers with alpine downhill gear.

Anecdotally I think the new setups are used at resorts. On lifts. So called aspirational users.
If you are collecting data I am curious if aiare course graduates are more numerous in the Northeast in the last few years. Not curious enough to collect the data...
My concern is for don't ask don't tell glade areas to blow up and then landowners and managers have to post them no trespassing.
I think mature good skiers do their research in New England and the book will prevent not cause incidents. That's my hope.

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[cat in january]

Just going to be a place where we disagree, but I think in your defense is where much of my concern comes in.

When you say you are puzzled where all the new AT setups are being used. The GBA glades have absorbed a huge number of these skiers. They go to Tucks, GOS and ski the cog because those are known routes. Now all of the other places will be known to them.

The recent incident of the snowboarders up in Tucks you refer to is what I subjectively feel I am seeing a lot more of up there. At least in Tucks and GOS help is readily available and evac is relatively simple. Subjectively I feel there are more beginner BC skiers in mid-winter out and about in the high terrain.

I was a winter hiker long before I was a BC skier (Tucks in Spring I don’t put in that category) and we always carried a kit so that if we were benighted we would survive. With the fast access in and out skis provide, I wonder how many are prepared. I would hate to see another SAR life lost out helping the unprepared.

The second area I see new skiers needing skill development is crampon and axe use. Bunch of places don’t need it, but when you want it and need to use it are you ready. I think it was Pipeline the fellow took a slide for life down.

When you look at the size of the Backcountry in the NE FB group and the response to this book I think it is a very small leap to say this book will lead to many more people exploring beyond their skills because they feel the safety in the guide book. For the huge population of the East Coast, the Presidentials are BC skiing.

I believe the book will lead to more SAR calls. I think we will see more incidents of folks going places where they shouldn’t like the pair that went down seven a half dozen years ago in very early season.

Selfishly I think it is more likely I find myself in places where folks are putting me in danger or in the position of needing to help them out with a rescue.

So I definitely have benefited from guidebooks in the Chic Chocs, Sierras and Rogers Pass. What I think is different about the Presidentials to those areas is the huge population that has easy access.

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

Well said Cat. Not saying anybody's right or wrong but a well-thought position for sure.

I ski a fair amount (not as much as I'd like) of bc in SoVT. But I've never taken avy training, don't have the proper gear, and quite frankly know I'm not prepared to get into steep alpine conditions in mid-winter. So I stay away from the technical stuff and stick to the moderately pitched hardwoods. It's fun. And that's all that matters.

Unfortunately, too many ill-informed people think too highly of their own skills and have no clue what they're facing. They also feel buoyed up by their connectivity...before cell phones, you were on your own. Nowadays, SAR is just a call away so, again, they are over-confident. We've seen it on this side of the CT River this past winter more than once. Smugglers Notch is our version of Mt. Washington (in terms of ill-prepared skier traffic, not terrain).

Sadly, it's going to take a significant and deadly issue to wake people up as to how dangerous the mountains can be.

[jhyatt]

Hopefully the book has an intro chapter about safety.
I took aiare 1 in the presidential.
We did not learn specifically about self arrest or crampons but it was discussed. I learned that stuff in a mountaineering class.
One student (split boarder) had to down climb the main chute in GOS. I got really cold waiting. Really really cold.

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[Jonathan S.]

Forget good skiers for a moment.

When I took my avy class in the bowl there was a dude that didn't understand basic layering. He had a cotton t-shirt and a large down puffy on. On the way up he realized he had soaked through the shirt and took off the jacket. 15 minutes into watching Marc lecture up there he realized he was way too cold to be in the mountains anymore with his soaked gear. We gave him some suggestions and offered gear but he put on his snowboard and bounced.

That is the level of people that rescuers are dealing with in the mountains.

Fortunately, people learn too. Most of the time.

Marc, as in, Marc Chauvin?
That is exactly where I find fault with the typical minimally vetted intro avy course. Even though I'm sure the course was still worthwhile -- even just sitting down for a beer with Marc would be a helpful educational experience ... well, okay, maybe not now, although then again, the knowledge gained from any conversation with Marc might be worth the risk even during the pandemic -- the course would have been even better had it not been hindered to some extent with an ill-prepared student like that.