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  1. #251
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    Bolton has been charging for BC access since the first lifts started turning. It’s only recently that they’ve charged for going up the ski trails they groom. It’s also one of the only ski areas in VT that is almost entirely on privately owned property. The biggest change is that no matter whether or not they are open for the season or closed you are supposed to have a pass. Whereas, prior policy in regards to charging required the mountain to be open.

    A lot of older nordic ski centers had ungroomed “bc” trails. Prospect had a trail to the summit and hill 2290 (which they later widened and groomed) Vermont Academy a loop or two off the west side. I believe both Rumford and Farmington had these as well.

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laps View Post
    Went up to Bolton today, they are installing rfid gates for lifts and, as my friend who works there told me, for uphill skiers. Apparently uphillers have to scan passes whenever they head up, lifts running or not. He said they were going to have people checking uphill passes, too.


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    Fuck that. Eat dicks Bolton.

  3. #253
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    It was the rfid gates at Bolton for uphill that struck me. My feeling is, if you are accessing a privately owned property it is always their choice to charge admission. If you are accessing a ski area on public land that you enjoy what they do to maintain it-parking, plowing, snowmaking, grooming and you ski down their runs in season and if it is within the areas lease to charge, they can. I sure hope folks keep spreading the word to keep it cool and stay away from snow making pre-season so that grey area stays open.

    I put in a big effort to get an uphill trail in at Black Mountain of Maine this Fall not because I am likely to use it much but because I think it could give some income to a community ski hill that needs all the nickles it can get. Next to BMOM, Mahoosuc Land Trust has a large preserve encompassing Rumford Whitecap that has some fun skiing. GBA had a glade weekend and opened up runs off the W side of Black and off the E and W side of Rumford Whitecap with skin trails connecting both mountains allowing for a proper tour and not just an up and down. Bolton looks the most similar in the East and interested to learn more about how it is working. Western Maine mountains (BMOM is a dozen miles as the crow flies from Sunday River) get less snow and more lean Winters than Vt so different.

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Fuck that. Eat dicks Bolton.
    Really, they are a nordic center with developed backcountry trails. It seems to me it’s more of a dick move to charge people to access Cotton Brook but not charge people to hike Wilderness. All they are doing is bringing their uphill access in line with their nordic access. It’s a little douchy of them to charge for their services when the Mtn is technically closed.

  5. #255
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    According to Vermont statute, since they are now charging for skinning access, they are now liable for personal injuries that may occur. Land owner liability act. Look into it. Really smart move. Now some fool will go try and shred in 6 inches of fluff on rocks, get fucked up, and have a case. This will be really good for all of us, I'm sure.

    "Vermont's landowner liability statutes are designed to encourage public access by protecting you from liability. Provided that you do not charge a fee, you are generally not liable for any property damage or personal injury to a person who uses your property for recreation."

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    According to Vermont statute, since they are now charging for skinning access, they are now liable for personal injuries that may occur. Land owner liability act. Look into it. Really smart move. Now some fool will go try and shred in 6 inches of fluff on rocks, get fucked up, and have a case. This will be really good for all of us, I'm sure.

    "Vermont's landowner liability statutes are designed to encourage public access by protecting you from liability. Provided that you do not charge a fee, you are generally not liable for any property damage or personal injury to a person who uses your property for recreation."
    This would be covered under their liability insurance, just like their lift ticket and nordic. Also when purchasing said pass you waive your rights.

  7. #257
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    Apr 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    This would be covered under their liability insurance, just like their lift ticket and nordic. Also when purchasing said pass you waive your rights.
    But...buying a pass to ride lifts put you on terrain that has been inspected and opened and patrolled. Charging people to then skin and ski means you are legally responsible for providing a safe environment. Now they are liable for people skiing a closed resort and closed trails. I wonder if they are really covered for that. It greatly increases their exposure, no matter what the policy says, the reality will come down to some lawyers in a room. If someone ends up seriously injured, a lawsuit would likely result in a large settlement, and they won't have VT law on their side. It seems foolish. How much do they really expect to make vs. potentially having to pay out to settle a potential law suit if someone ends up paralyzed or crippled for life stuffing a water bar or eating some ledge at high speed.

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    But...buying a pass to ride lifts put you on terrain that has been inspected and opened and patrolled. Charging people to then skin and ski means you are legally responsible for providing a safe environment. Now they are liable for people skiing a closed resort and closed trails. I wonder if they are really covered for that. It greatly increases their exposure, no matter what the policy says, the reality will come down to some lawyers in a room. If someone ends up seriously injured, a lawsuit would likely result in a large settlement, and they won't have VT law on their side.

    Unless of course the user agreement in the pass purchase addresses this. I don’t have the agreement but I would assume Bolton added verbiage about skiing being dangerous and to ski at your own risk.

  9. #259
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    Also based on usage, I imagine MRG is not far from implementing something similar.

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Unless of course the user agreement in the pass purchase addresses this. I don’t have the agreement but I would assume Bolton added verbiage about skiing being dangerous and to ski at your own risk.
    Even if they did, it doesn't mean they won't get sued, and if some lawyer is willing to argue that the conditions on Mtn were dangerous to the point of negligent, they could still lose....and that could be enough for them to be encouraged by their own lawyers to settle. It could be expensive. If they charge for access, they are on the hook to provide a safe environment, significantly more so than if they allow access for recreation on their land for free.

  11. #261
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    Daves new plan to make money skiing at Bolton..




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  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Also based on usage, I imagine MRG is not far from implementing something similar.
    Was fun while it lasted. Gong show over there these days. Oh, Gee....some intardnet tough guy insults me...so surprising. Eat a dick guy.

  13. #263
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  14. #264
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    I was there yesterday, it was ski groomed flat in most places and in others bumps were starting to form.

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Was fun while it lasted. Gong show over there these days. Oh, Gee....some M-series JONG insults me...so surprising. Eat a dick guy.
    FIFY
    24° 06°

  16. #266
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    Aug 2008
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    Central VT
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    $180 for an uphill pass? Well so much for skinning Bolton this season.

  17. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Even if they did, it doesn't mean they won't get sued, and if some lawyer is willing to argue that the conditions on Mtn were dangerous to the point of negligent, they could still lose....and that could be enough for them to be encouraged by their own lawyers to settle. It could be expensive. If they charge for access, they are on the hook to provide a safe environment, significantly more so than if they allow access for recreation on their land for free.
    While the landowner liability clearly changes when charging for access, Vermont has a separate statute addressing ski-area liability (c.f. https://recreation-law.com/2013/08/2...er-safety-act/; I'm sure you can find the actual law online via the Vermont legiscritter site, too, but I'm not inclined to bother right now).

    Yes, at the end of the day, it would come down to what conclusion the lawyers and/or judge reached. Given the reference to "open" trails in the Skier Safety Act, I'm wondering what the legal definition of an "open trail" is—if the resort is closed for the day, is the trail still open? What if the trail pod was closed for the day because the lift wasn't open? etc

    And yes, again, those are probably questions that we won't have definite answers to until something happens (whether at Bolton or elsewhere) and the definitions get hashed out in court.

    Re: BV vs BMOM, the snow is a huge difference. BV gets 300"+ a year, western Maine does not.

    And yes, it does really just align the uphill access on alpine terrain with nordic policies for pay-to-play, but given the history of not really enforcing the latter, it's going to be a bit of culture shock. I do hope they are successful, but change is hard, and only time will really tell.

  18. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by HankScorpio View Post
    $180 for an uphill pass? Well so much for skinning Bolton this season.
    GTF out! This effectively is access to state land as well. Horse shit. Fuck the Delauries family as well. That law it in regard to people using lifts.

    As far as the ski area recreation law is concerned... Without a clear definition of what "Facilities" means, at the time this statute was written, it meant lifts. In other laws regarding ski areas, facilities means physical structures.
    Last edited by DaveVt; 11-15-2019 at 11:25 AM.

  19. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by HankScorpio View Post
    $180 for an uphill pass? Well so much for skinning Bolton this season.
    Crazy! Tremblant was chargin 30$ for uphill access a few year back. Prob more now. I've never bought one because no one's ever asked to check my pass while up-hilling. Usually when I've passed patrol or staff on the way up, just a wave and a smile suffices.

    Tremblant and Bolton is probably comparing apples and oranges and I've never been to Bolton but $180 for an uphill pass seems way crazy man.
    24° 06°

  20. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by danmelon View Post
    Crazy! Tremblant was chargin 30$ for uphill access a few year back. Prob more now. I've never bought one because no one's ever asked to check my pass while up-hilling. Usually when I've passed patrol or staff on the way up, just a wave and a smile suffices.

    Tremblant and Bolton is probably comparing apples and oranges and I've never been to Bolton but $180 for an uphill pass seems way crazy man.
    It's $180 for the season where as your example from Tremblant was a day pass I'm guessing. I'm not a fan of it but realistically $180 for a season isn't that bad.

  21. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by danmelon View Post
    Crazy! Tremblant was chargin 30$ for uphill access a few year back. Prob more now. I've never bought one because no one's ever asked to check my pass while up-hilling. Usually when I've passed patrol or staff on the way up, just a wave and a smile suffices.

    Tremblant and Bolton is probably comparing apples and oranges and I've never been to Bolton but $180 for an uphill pass seems way crazy man.
    $180 is the nordic, backcountry, AND uphill pass.

  22. #272
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    Sep 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridge_skier View Post
    It's $180 for the season where as your example from Tremblant was a day pass I'm guessing. I'm not a fan of it but realistically $180 for a season isn't that bad.
    the season pass is 40 at tremblant this year.
    They got a name for the winners in the world

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  23. #273
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    Ferfuxsake....enough barroom lawyering.

    BTW,Magic is entirely on private property also but doesn't charge for uphill; in fact, if the place is open and you check in at the top, you get a token for 1 free lift ride.

    Skiing Mt. Snow tomorrow and Bromley on Sunday. Belgian Blue FRS jacket, filthy yellow Marmot pants, red helmet. Ask for change. Not going near the shitshow that will be Killington (although I'm guessing Mt. Snow will be similar - I have an Epic pass so if it sux, I leave). See you kooks out there.

  24. #274
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    Apr 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIsAugustWest View Post
    Ferfuxsake....enough barroom lawyering.

    BTW,Magic is entirely on private property also but doesn't charge for uphill; in fact, if the place is open and you check in at the top, you get a token for 1 free lift ride.
    If I lived close, this would be a reason for me to ski there when I do buy tickets with the kiddo. We were going to Bolton last year for Mondays 'cause we home school and it's $25. I'll never buy another ticket there, let alone $180 nordic pass so I can skin in to the State Forest to ski.

  25. #275
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    Oct 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by anotherVTskibum View Post
    While the landowner liability clearly changes when charging for access, Vermont has a separate statute addressing ski-area liability (c.f. https://recreation-law.com/2013/08/2...er-safety-act/; I'm sure you can find the actual law online via the Vermont legiscritter site, too, but I'm not inclined to bother right now).

    Yes, at the end of the day, it would come down to what conclusion the lawyers and/or judge reached. Given the reference to "open" trails in the Skier Safety Act, I'm wondering what the legal definition of an "open trail" is—if the resort is closed for the day, is the trail still open? What if the trail pod was closed for the day because the lift wasn't open? etc

    And yes, again, those are probably questions that we won't have definite answers to until something happens (whether at Bolton or elsewhere) and the definitions get hashed out in court.

    Re: BV vs BMOM, the snow is a huge difference. BV gets 300"+ a year, western Maine does not.

    And yes, it does really just align the uphill access on alpine terrain with nordic policies for pay-to-play, but given the history of not really enforcing the latter, it's going to be a bit of culture shock. I do hope they are successful, but change is hard, and only time will really tell.
    Yes, it is a culture change to pay to hike up a ski hill and I will regret the loss of free early season access if that ever happens. Black Mountain of Maine is different than most hills its size where it is closed M-Th except school vacation weeks

    As I have been pushing forward the idea of an uphill trail I have been following the issue. My main concern was to separate uphill traffic from downhill as I don't think they mix well. The trend seems to be that ski areas want users to have tickets. Still it is all over the place how resorts across the nation respond. Fee/Free Yes/NO Operating hours only/Non-operating hours/Anytime in season only/out of season only

    The lawyers for the resorts or the insurance companies feel strongly about the legal ground they stand on. As far as I know in all the years uphill access has happened there has not been a lawsuit.

    My guess is that much like snowboarding, uphilling will be welcomed at most resorts and resorts will see it as an experience guests want to pay for. And my guess is more uphill only trails will be created at resorts

    edit to add in Tenney Ski Hill which is reopening is following the Magic model

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