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  1. #26
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    "Go ahead, do that thing you do!"
    I just watched it again last weekend prior to watching the first three episodes of the show. The thing that really jumps out at me is the dynamic between Veidt and Dr. Manhattan. At the story's heart is an old tale, one of a remote, seemingly uncaring god and a being, first among his kind, who resents this aloof god and perhaps would like to be a god himself. In play between them is the fate of the world. The crux of the matter: Is it better to control the destiny of mankind or to allow mankind to develop and discover its capacity to achieve a greater destiny, even if this means Man may fall and be consumed by the Flood.

    Sounds like Paradise Lost, to me. To get the story going, Satan must first escape his confinement in Tartarus and cross the Abyss to get to Eden. Which is exactly what I think Veidt is up to. Since the only sight of Dr. Manhattan shown so far is him on Mars erasing what looks like Veidt's castle, I am assuming Satan's journey has already happened in the show's primary timeline.

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    Last edited by neckdeep; 11-09-2019 at 11:51 AM.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by neckdeep View Post
    ...In other words, your favorable impressions of The Comedian and Rorschach probably result from the simple fact that Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Jackie Earle Haley steal the damn show!
    Ohhhhh yeah! THAT'S it. Those actors are awesome and absolutely nailed these roles. Whereas I can barely even remember the other performances. Perfect assessment, neckdeep.

    Rorschach in prison was SO badass. "What you don't seem to understand is I'm not lock in here with you... YOU'RE LOCKED IN HERE WITH ME!":


  3. #28
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    Pretty good episode last night, as someone who hasn’t spent a lot of time on the premise they did a good job filling in the squid backstory. Still finding it entertaining.

  4. #29
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    ^^^ agreed. I knew nothing of the Watchmen story until this series, and am very entertained.

  5. #30
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    The last two episodes have tied in the original source material very well, still enjoying.

  6. #31
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    Were the Watchman graphics so full of racist shit?
    I mean, come on, white people bad, must kill blacks and put them back down to where they belong. Really?
    And the Asian trillion-air chick is going to do something similar to Voight (sp?) years before. Try to "save" humanity by doing something horrible. In this case, instead of killing millions with a giant space squid, I think she's going to wipe out everyone's memories so they don't have any prejudice.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobMc View Post
    The last two episodes have tied in the original source material very well, still enjoying.
    Been hearing this a lot. Not having read/seen the original source material, it'a all good, but I have to ask: was Veidt such a douchebag twat originally??

    And I thought for sure the dragon lady was Dr. M; this week's ending completely blindsided me.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkhound Odin View Post
    And the Asian trillion-air chick is going to do something similar to Voight (sp?) years before. Try to "save" humanity by doing something horrible. In this case, instead of killing millions with a giant space squid, I think she's going to wipe out everyone's memories so they don't have any prejudice.
    I don't think it's an eraser. IMO, everything we've seen suggests it's a psychic projector. We have been shown a combination of things to indicate this. Trieu acquired Veidt's company; presumably, she was after the research that he used to create the fatal psychic blast in his alien squid hoax. She also has access to the projector tech that Will/Hooded Justice captured from Cyclops and we have seen it how was enhanced with the flashlight projector Will used on Judd. Then, there is Trieu's own extensive work with memory, Nostalgia, and her statement that it failed because it's basic human nature to dwell on the bad memories. She has Will's memories of the Tulsa massacre. Her mother's traumatic memories of the war. Add it all together and it suggests she plans to project memories that force everyone to experience what it means to be on the losing side of genocide.

    Trieu wants everyone to be woke. If she were to erase memory, that would be depriving humanity of moral choice and that is merely repeating the fundamental flaw in Ozymandias' hoax. The squid hoax was temporary fix for an emergency situation. Human nature did not change, it was briefly constrained by fear. Once the "gods" (i,e. Dr. Manhattan and Ozymandias) were gone, history began to repeat itself once again. Part of Paradise Lost concerns this very thing. After Adam is cast out of Eden, the Archangel shows him the future; that his descendants will wallow cyclically in the misery of human nature (original sin) but there is the hope of redemption. Mankind must choose redemption of its own free will and live a moral life. Redemption can't be forced or achieved with giant squid hoaxes. At a fundamental level, the solution to the woes of the world can't be brought about by superheroes. Having superheroes around saving the day just forestalls Mankind taking responsibility for its own flaws.

    Just remember: this is a Damon Lindelof show and he is obsessed with these redemption themes. Lost was an extended analogy for Purgatory and his other big show, The Leftovers dealt with life after The Rapture.
    Last edited by neckdeep; 12-04-2019 at 04:22 PM.

  9. #34
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    Well fuck me sideways; we have to know the inner psyche of Lindelof to understand this shit!?!?!?!?
    How dare you sir??

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by neckdeep View Post
    I don't think it's an eraser. IMO, everything we've seen suggests it's a psychic projector. We have been shown a combination of things to indicate this. Trieu acquired Veidt's company; presumably, she was after the research that he used to create the fatal psychic blast in his alien squid hoax. She also has access to the projector tech that Will/Hooded Justice captured from Cyclops and we have seen it how was enhanced with the flashlight projector Will used on Judd. Then, there is Trieu's own extensive work with memory, Nostalgia, and her statement that it failed because it's basic human nature to dwell on the bad memories. She has Will's memories of the Tulsa massacre. Her mother's traumatic memories of the war. Add it all together and it suggests she plans to project memories that force everyone to experience what it means to be on the losing side of genocide.

    Trieu wants everyone to be woke. If she were to erase memory, that would be depriving humanity of moral choice and that is merely repeating the fundamental flaw in Ozymandias' hoax. The squid hoax was temporary fix for an emergency situation. Human nature did not change, it was briefly constrained by fear. Once the "gods" (i,e. Dr. Manhattan and Ozymandias) were gone, history began to repeat itself once again. Part of Paradise Lost concerns this very thing. After Adam is cast out of Eden, the Archangel shows him the future; that his descendants will wallow cyclically in the misery of human nature (original sin) but there is the hope of redemption. Mankind must choose redemption of its own free will and live a moral life. Redemption can't be forced or achieved with giant squid hoaxes. At a fundamental level, the solution to the woes of the world can't be brought about by superheroes. Having superheroes around saving the day just forestalls Mankind taking responsibility for its own flaws.

    Just remember: this is a Damon Lindelof show and he is obsessed with these redemption themes. Lost was an extended analogy for Purgatory and his other big show, The Leftovers dealt with life after The Rapture.
    Impressive. How do you know this stuff? Seriously.

  11. #36
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    He's neckdeep!

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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by My Pet Powder Goat View Post
    He's neckdeep!

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    Some kind of savant with a bearded neck

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47bp View Post
    Impressive. How do you know this stuff? Seriously.
    I really enjoy these "puzzle" shows and, dang, this one is almost as puzzling as Westworld. It gives one something to think about.

    How do I know this stuff? Because you can't understand western lit without a firm grasp of it's foundations in theology. I can promise you this: Alan Moore, Damon Lindelof and everyone in the writer's room for Watchmen has read Paradise Lost. It's one of the most important works in the cannon of English literature. Satan is the original supervillain. The Satan of Paradise Lost is not a monster; he's a super being, an angel. He's sort of a deeply flawed tragic hero, actually. Kind of like Ozymandias.
    Last edited by neckdeep; 12-05-2019 at 02:43 PM.

  14. #39
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    Those last few episodes were pretty damn good. I hope they do another season but if not they ended it well.

  15. #40
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    I thought it was good. I was dead wrong about the mcguffin being a giant guilt projector but that's what I get for trying to sort through all of Lindelof's red herrings. I liked the funny, subversive payoff for all the Paradise Lost references. Jeremy Irons brought much needed comic relief to a relentlessly dark show.

    In case no one noticed, according to Milton, God creates the paradise of Eden. A defeated Satan infiltrates Eden and uses trickery to bring about Man's fall. God punishes Man and Satan but holds out the hope of redemption for Man. Translation: evil and suffering exist in God's Providence as a test for mankind.

    According to Lindelof, God creates paradise but finds it to be incredibly boring, especially Adam and Eve. Man is so inherently simple and servile that God can't stand to be around them and doesn't even want to take any responsibility for his creations. God comes to the fallen angel and finds that, deprived of his former glory, Satan is really letting himself go. God tricks Satan and imprisons him in Eden with Man because he thinks they'll be good for one another. Then God leaves and he never looks back. Satan soon comes to the same conclusions about Man that God has and he too desperately wants to escape paradise. But, Man has now embraced Satan as their lord, no matter how cruel he is to Man. When the fallen angel tries to leave, Man angrily squashes the fruits of the Tree of Knowledge on Satan's head. Translation: God had no plan. God stopped paying attention to us a long time ago. Evil and suffering exist because that's the way we like it.
    Last edited by neckdeep; 12-17-2019 at 01:55 PM.

  16. #41
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    I really enjoyed the last few episodes. Great series, started off a bit WTF but came together.

  17. #42
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    I agree with all of the above: well done!

    Paradise Lost, though?

    .....nah.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PB View Post
    I agree with all of the above: well done!

    Paradise Lost, though?

    .....nah.
    Right. Just a coincidence we had a remote god, an egotistical fallen hero, a paradise, an Adam and Eve and the Tree of Knowledge. Just a coincidence that one of the main questions of the comic, the show and 1500 years of theological discourse is: "Why doesn't this all powerful entity do more to save humanity from itself?"

    Just a coincidence the god's wife was named ANGELa. Just a coincidence Lady Trieu wore a hat that looks exactly like a halo from medieval icons. Just a coincidence the final confrontation took place in a false church. Just a coincidence the first frozen squid to hit Trieu puts a hole through her palm. I could go on.

    Sure, the Eden storyline was mostly milked for laughs; a sop for those of us who are literate. C'mon, man. The writers practically beat us over the head with all the biblical references. If you deny what Lindelof is reaching for, then, I mean no offense but I don't think you really understood what Alan Moore was saying about our desire for superheroes (and gods). Because that's actually where the two writers are working on the same wavelength. IMHO, I think Lindelof put in all that stuff as an homage to Moore.

    Thats ok. Everyone is free to take what they want from the show. If entertainment is all one wanted, the show provided plenty of that. But, there is Moore to it than meets the eye. There's levels to this thing. If you want to dismiss it, go right ahead. You are only cheating yourself. There was some really clever stuff in this show and some deep thoughts too. Like I said, theologians and philosophers have been pondering these questions for a long, long time.


    So, did anybody notice what the marquee says? A little foreshadowing, perhaps?
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    Last edited by neckdeep; 12-18-2019 at 12:47 AM.

  19. #44
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    How does one watch?

  20. #45
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    Well, now that you lay it all out like that, seems pretty straight forward, I certainly must admit.
    For some reason, however, know this really doesn't add that much for me, a self-confessed cinema dilettante. I think I could be enticed deeper into the layers, though - certainly easy enough to do in the Information Age.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by neckdeep;5829218... I can promise you this: Alan Moore, Damon Lindelof and everyone in the writer's room for [I
    Watchmen[/I] has read Paradise Lost...
    I am pretty sure that Alan Moore isn't anywhere near the writer's room for the show nor that he has anything even remotely to do with Lindelof...

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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by neckdeep View Post
    Alan Moore
    Quote Originally Posted by dookey67 View Post
    Alan Moore
    Alan Moore hates us all, each and every one, for even acknowledging this show's existence.

    And since we have uttered his name thrice in this thread, he's casting a spell of condemnation on us all right now.
    Last edited by CS2-6; 12-20-2019 at 07:30 AM.
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  23. #48
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    Pundits are saying that Season 2 ain't gonna happen...

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/enter...vqx42jTHUOJ-e8
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  24. #49
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    Late to the party but yeah. Good show.

    Never read the Comics. I'm ok with that.

  25. #50
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    Tim Blake Nelson is awesome.

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