WASATCH STOKE, CONDITIONS, OBSERVATIONS and ASSORTED DRIVAL 19-20

[tBatt]

Right? That LCC gondola article did nothing to convince me it's not a terrible idea. You know it will end up costing a lot more than $300 million, so let's just call it half a billion dollars for something that by UDOT's own estimation will be massively underutilized most of the time, there won't be base area parking, and the road will remain open to the public. Maybe I'm just the dumbest guy in the room, but I don't get it. It's one step below those clowns that want to build subdivisions in the middle of Utah Lake.

Of course then there's still the BCC traffic issue to solve, the unacknowledged gorilla in the room of the fact that getting in and out of the gravel pit parking center will be a traffic nightmare, and that the other 80% of utahns who don't ski will be giving a billion dollar subsidy to a handful of private businesses.

At a minimum, anything that leaves either road open to private vehicles is a half measure doomed to failure. Busses, private shuttle services like Canyon Transportation, permitted commercial vehicles and that's it. No cars, period, just like Zion, which I think is the model to follow. Given the info in that Trib article I see no reason to destroy the LCC viewshed with a gondola. Build the gravel pit parking center, snowshed the road at key locations in LCC, and run a shitload of busses.

How many slide paths reach the road in BCC? What's the average grade?
IMO, more buses doesn't solve a) the road surface issue and b) the overhead avalanche hazard. What's worse, a slide taking out five cars with 3 people in each or a slide taking out two busses with 50 people in each? How often do we see buses off the road?

On another note, I did some digging 10,200' N facing.

HS 180 cm, 4F, Snow surface temp -10°C
Shovel Shear 130 cm q2, looked like a MF crust.
CT14 Q2 80cms on graupel
Facets/Rounds interface 40 cm, 1F- Hardness rounds, 4F hardness facets, Snow temp -4°C
ECTN, Had to kick the shovel to get it to break. Q3, started at the facet interface and broke to the ground, keeping the facets with the block of snow for the most part.
Thermometer read -4°C at the ground, likely needs to be calibrated.

Pics incoming.

Rant incoming re:the road from AltaCoup

[tBatt]

How many slide paths reach the road in BCC? What's the average grade?
IMO, more buses doesn't solve a) the road surface issue and b) the overhead avalanche hazard. What's worse, a slide taking out five cars with 3 people in each or a slide taking out two busses with 50 people in each? How often do we see buses off the road?

On another note, I did some digging 10,200' N facing.

HS 180 cm, 4F, Snow surface temp -10°C
Shovel Shear 130 cm q2, looked like a MF crust.
CT14 Q2 80cms on graupel
Facets/Rounds interface 40 cm, 1F- Hardness rounds, 4F hardness facets, Snow temp -4°C
ECTN, Had to kick the shovel to get it to break. Q3, started at the facet interface and broke to the ground, keeping the facets with the block of snow for the most part.
Thermometer read -4°C at the ground, likely needs to be calibrated.

Pics incoming.

Rant incoming re:the road from AltaCoup

Basals



Graupel

[Skidog]

How many slide paths reach the road in BCC? What's the average grade?
IMO, more buses doesn't solve a) the road surface issue and b) the overhead avalanche hazard. What's worse, a slide taking out five cars with 3 people in each or a slide taking out two busses with 50 people in each? How often do we see buses off the road?

On another note, I did some digging 10,200' N facing.

HS 180 cm, 4F, Snow surface temp -10°C
Shovel Shear 130 cm q2, looked like a MF crust.
CT14 Q2 80cms on graupel
Facets/Rounds interface 40 cm, 1F- Hardness rounds, 4F hardness facets, Snow temp -4°C
ECTN, Had to kick the shovel to get it to break. Q3, started at the facet interface and broke to the ground, keeping the facets with the block of snow for the most part.
Thermometer read -4°C at the ground, likely needs to be calibrated.

Pics incoming.

Rant incoming re:the road from AltaCoup

I think a snowshed tunnel like yurp is a good solution. Keeps traffic moving, less snow to move, faster openings, etc..though I support a gondola with caveats.

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[tBatt]

I think a snowshed tunnel like yurp is a good solution. Keeps traffic moving, less snow to move, faster openings, etc..though I support a gondola with caveats.

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And hwy550 to Silverton. Proven to be successful but that road doesn’t quite see the volume as LCC.

[altacoup]

New technique for getting out of canyon. I walked to entry one from Alta and hitched. Saved me probably two to three hours.


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[Dantheman]

How many slide paths reach the road in BCC? What's the average grade?
IMO, more buses doesn't solve a) the road surface issue and b) the overhead avalanche hazard. What's worse, a slide taking out five cars with 3 people in each or a slide taking out two busses with 50 people in each? How often do we see buses off the road?

The number slide paths in BCC seems less relevant than how often it closes for control work, which is rarely. Google says the average grade is 7.8%, but that may include Guardsman. IIRC, even the most pie-in-the-sky solutions in Mountain Accord never proposed anything other than increased bus service in BCC.

That bus that slid off the road in LCC earlier this year is the only one I can recall recently, though there may have been others. That guy also wasn't using his chains. Private vehicles seem to end up in the ditch far more often than busses. Snow sheds in LCC address the overhead avalanche hazard. Snow sheds don't seem necessary in BCC since, based on the low control closure frequency, they could get away with just closing the road periodically.

Anything that leaves the road open to the public guarantees the continued existence of the red snake and kneecaps an improved bus system.

[altacoup]

The number slide paths in BCC seems less relevant than how often it closes for control work, which is rarely. Google says the average grade is 7.8%, but that may include Guardsman. IIRC, even the most pie-in-the-sky solutions in Mountain Accord never proposed anything other than increased bus service in BCC.

That bus that slid off the road in LCC earlier this year is the only one I can recall recently, though there may have been others. That guy also wasn't using his chains. Private vehicles seem to end up in the ditch far more often than busses. Snow sheds in LCC address the overhead avalanche hazard. Snow sheds don't seem necessary in BCC since, based on the low control closure frequency, they could get away with just closing the road periodically.

Anything that leaves the road open to the public guarantees the continued existence of the red snake and kneecaps an improved bus system.

Actually it was 4 buses that went off the road on opening day


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[mall walker]

My dogs need some exercise and I'm thinking of taking them up Porter Fork tomorrow am. Anybody been up that way recently and can comment on the coverage up the road and/or the toboggan run down from the meadow?

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coverage on both is good to go. mid season levels when I left on Dec 21.

[Dantheman]

Actually it was 4 buses that went off the road on opening day

Huh, not sure how I missed that detail. Regardless, that's pretty unusual. How many busses have slid off the road in LCC over the last 5 years? How many have done so in BCC in that period? How many private citizens have fubared either road in that period?

[Dshack89]

coverage on both is good to go. mid season levels when I left on Dec 21.

Thanks!!

Huh, not sure how I missed that detail. Regardless, that's pretty unusual. How many busses have slid off the road in LCC over the last 5 years? How many have done so in BCC in that period? How many private citizens have fubared either road in that period?

I don't disagree with your general argument, but the busses do seem to regularly slide off on the bypass road. I've had to walk that final stretch to Alta more than once after the driver went too far right off the road and couldn't get moving again.

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[Dantheman]

Thanks!!
I don't disagree with your general argument, but the busses do seem to regularly slide off on the bypass road. I've had to walk that final stretch to Alta more than once after the driver went too far right off the road and couldn't get moving again.

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Seems like a solvable problem.

[tBatt]

I think a snowshed tunnel like yurp is a good solution. Keeps traffic moving, less snow to move, faster openings, etc..though I support a gondola with caveats.

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And hwy550 to Silverton. Proven to be successful but that road doesn’t quite see the volume as LCC.

[baron]

Huh, not sure how I missed that detail. Regardless, that's pretty unusual. How many busses have slid off the road in LCC over the last 5 years? How many have done so in BCC in that period? How many private citizens have fubared either road in that period?

I have been on a lot of busses over the years...last year was 1ts time I tried BCC route.

One worst experiences in transportation ever..we all know those woes/ But, drivers were going far to fast on the curves surprised me. Since then I've heard of 6 slide offs by busses ...and I don't follow the news.

[Skidog]

And hwy550 to Silverton. Proven to be successful but that road doesn’t quite see the volume as LCC.

The Holland a Lincoln tunnels go under a river and see way more traffic. Lcc sheds would be only at slide paths not a continuous tunnel.

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[bigdude2468]

The problem with buses is how do you schedule equipment & drivers just in case? The vehicle traffic up the canyon is inconsistent. The last two days which I assumed would be very busy did not materialize, neither day was Alta's parking lots full. If they went all in and required travel via buses what do you do on a big powder day in January when the skier volume could easily be several times more than a non-powder day. You going to pay to have drivers on the payroll just in case they are needed? To me sheds make the most sense as they are a one time cost and after installation cost nothing to maintain. The gondola besides requiring $100's of millions to build plus parking ramps or shuttle buses all have an operating cost that never go away.. A letter to the Editor in the SLC made the point that a gondola does not address the other element which is when the parking lots up LCC are full the ski areas are at capacity. We all saw it last season, moving more people up LCC is ridiculous.

[dfinn]

Really cold, no sun all day, perfect snow and no signs of instabilities (or other people) on steep and high East or West aspects.

[zion zig zag]

^^Agreed. Great skiing, light and cold blower today. Exit was a little luge-y and spicy, could use some more low elevation snow.

[dfinn]

Yeah, if I had to find a complaint that would be about it. +1 core shot.

[mall walker]

noooo suckages encountered today. steep deep and over the head for a few laps on the headwall, with only some minor sluffing to show for it. even my exit of choice is filling in nicely.

e: skied pretty much exclusively mid elevation NE

[Dantheman]

The problem with buses is how do you schedule equipment & drivers just in case? The vehicle traffic up the canyon is inconsistent. The last two days which I assumed would be very busy did not materialize, neither day was Alta's parking lots full. If they went all in and required travel via buses what do you do on a big powder day in January when the skier volume could easily be several times more than a non-powder day. You going to pay to have drivers on the payroll just in case they are needed?

Oh that's an issue for sure. High volume/low frequency is the hardest problem in transportation engineering, even more so when the high volume days occur more or less randomly. You either build for the high volume days and accept that your system will be drastically underutilized most of the time (gondi/train), or try to engineer a flexible solution (buses). Option A seems less than ideal in a fiscally conservative state with far more pressing transportation problems, doesn't address mid-canyon BC access points, and still requires addressing highly variable demand for buses.

To me sheds make the most sense as they are a one time cost and after installation cost nothing to maintain. The gondola besides requiring $100's of millions to build plus parking ramps or shuttle buses all have an operating cost that never go away..

Everything has maintenance costs. I imagine sheds have maintenance costs similar to bridges, which are probably far lower than the >$10M/yr a gondi would require, but not nothing. Any sheds in LCC would also have to be built quite large to accommodate heavy construction equipment and other large vehicles. They absolutely have drawbacks, but it sounds like UDOT thinks the road is going to continue to be the backbone of transportation in LCC so something has to be done to address control work closures.

A letter to the Editor in the SLC made the point that a gondola does not address the other element which is when the parking lots up LCC are full the ski areas are at capacity. We all saw it last season, moving more people up LCC is ridiculous.

That's the other elephant in the room. Everyone is so focused on how to move more people up and down the Cottonwoods that no one is asking whether we should.

[Boissal]

Haven't dealt with any sharks this year but witnessed a buddy take a spectacular digger yesterday after clipping a coffee table-sized chunk of quartzite at high speed. He came out unharmed and we found his missing ski after 5 minutes of panicked digging. Hard to stick to the low-tide mindset when things are skiing like it's February...

Hit this trail snack on the skinner on Sat:

[mall walker]

^ I can't believe how little abuse my bases have taken coming out of various low elevation zones this season. another 18-24 won't hurt either...

[Boissal]

^ I can't believe how little abuse my bases have taken coming out of various low elevation zones this season. another 18-24 won't hurt either...

18-24?? How about 40"!!!



PS: the base on the CD104L seems to be harder than the previous Down versions. Not sure if they've made a change...

[snowaddict91]

https://agency.governmentjobs.com//u...&JobID=2657846

Looks like they are hiring people specifically to check tires so there's that.

Looks like y'all have been enjoying some good conditions. Been down and out with a nasty cold for a few days and I'm already stir crazy.

[lpkdz]

Oh that's an issue for sure. High volume/low frequency is the hardest problem in transportation engineering, even more so when the high volume days occur more or less randomly. You either build for the high volume days and accept that your system will be drastically underutilized most of the time (gondi/train), or try to engineer a flexible solution (buses). Option A seems less than ideal in a fiscally conservative state with far more pressing transportation problems, doesn't address mid-canyon BC access points, and still requires addressing highly variable demand for buses.



Everything has maintenance costs. I imagine sheds have maintenance costs similar to bridges, which are probably far lower than the >$10M/yr a gondi would require, but not nothing. Any sheds in LCC would also have to be built quite large to accommodate heavy construction equipment and other large vehicles. They absolutely have drawbacks, but it sounds like UDOT thinks the road is going to continue to be the backbone of transportation in LCC so something has to be done to address control work closures.



That's the other elephant in the room. Everyone is so focused on how to move more people up and down the Cottonwoods that no one is asking whether we should.

What is the system for the plow drivers in the winter in terms of dealing with randomness? It seems like whatever they do could be implemented with buses. Pay premium on the 30 some odd days a year that the volume is insanely high and I'd guess they'd get coverage. The cost of a gondola seems nuts to me, I can't help but keep coming back to buses because of the malleability they have in terms of high vs low volume days and successful reduction in the number of cars.