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  1. #2626
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Artist Formerly Known as Leavenworth Skier View Post
    The Cascades need more ski areas, and major expansion of present ski area infrastructure and acreage. /deadhorse
    Good luck with that. Declining and unreliable snow fall in the PNW will keep investors from bankrolling expansion and new development even if there weren’t environmental concerns.

    I have no problem with ski areas outside or adjacent to Wilderness areas but I would like to see Wilderness stay as is. It’s really the only place to escape the Deplorables. I don’t mean just Trump supporters either.


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  2. #2627
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    Good luck with that. Declining and unreliable snow fall in the PNW will keep investors from bankrolling expansion and new development even if there weren’t environmental concerns.

    I have no problem with ski areas outside or adjacent to Wilderness areas but I would like to see Wilderness stay as is. It’s really the only place to escape the Deplorables. I don’t mean just Trump supporters either.


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    Lets just turn Paradise Inn into Timberline. Have a handful of lifts that go down below the Inn, and then 2 lifts above it... one to Panorama point (magic mile), and then one to anvil rock that only gets dug out in the spring (palmer). Hikers and tourists would love using the lifts in the summer and fall to get around.

  3. #2628
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    All National Parks and Monuments should be turned into amusement parks. Lifts, gondolas and ebikes for the fat and lazy masses.


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  4. #2629
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Requires a token you receive when renewing your parking permit.
    Excuse my ignorance, but is the only way to get hold of a Crystal parking pass these days to have been grandfathered in? Or are they open for purchase to the general public?

    The link posted by Stikki isn't working for me either.

  5. #2630
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    Quote Originally Posted by powder_to_the_people View Post
    Excuse my ignorance, but is the only way to get hold of a Crystal parking pass these days to have been grandfathered in? Or are they open for purchase to the general public?

    The link posted by Stikki isn't working for me either.
    They have long been grandfathered in with years long waiting list. No "these days" involved.

    Apparently there will be a first come first served sale of of the extra capacity or non renewing in the next few days.

    And that will be system for all of them from 21/22.

    I would keep your eye out for an announcement that will lead to another website crash anyday now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  6. #2631
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    It’s one thing for Crystal to restrict pass sales (not that they ever had to?) but is it reasonable to have Altera restrict pass sales to certain areas? So Seattle residents can’t buy one but if they can get an ID or NY zip code they can?

  7. #2632
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    I still can't believe only two years ago Crystal had an 11am parking guarantee.

  8. #2633
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    So it looks like 410's gonna be closed for quite awhile between Greenwater & Enumclaw. Which has me thinking about putzing through the woods from my humble abode here along I-90 and back to partake in recreational opportunities currently unavailable to Covidiot westsiders. Anyone with a pulse on GW these days know if the tavern is still slinging grub and the general store pumping gas?

  9. #2634
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipedream View Post
    So it looks like 410's gonna be closed for quite awhile between Greenwater & Enumclaw.
    Oof, several weeks? $37 says landslides this fall


    Quote Originally Posted by WSDOT
    State Route 410 in and east of Enumclaw will remain closed for several weeks between mileposts 29 and 43 due to hot spots from a wildfire and trees and rocks falling from the burnt slope above the highway. The wildfire burned and weakened trees and roots, loosening rock and debris from the hillside. The trees and large rocks continue to fall to the roadway below, creating unsafe travel conditions for the 14-mile section of SR 410. Tree removal and rock scaling work will continue before damaged guardrail can be replaced and the road can reopen. Follow @wsdot_traffic on Twitter for real-time updates about the SR 410 Enumclaw closure.

    Travelers coming from the west (Morton area) can access SR 410 and SR 123 east of the closure by using US 12 through Packwood. Travelers coming from the east (Yakima area) must use SR 410 Chinook Pass and can use SR 123 to get to the open part of US 12 and travel through Packwood. These reroutes could significantly increase travel time.

    Danger trees by Washington State Dept of Transportation, on Flickr

  10. #2635
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    Good luck with that. Declining and unreliable snow fall in the PNW will keep investors from bankrolling expansion and new development even if there weren’t environmental concerns.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    This is a bullshit talking point, the PNW has some of the most consistent snowfall in the country. The quality may not always be to your liking, but to talk about inconsistency or lack of quantity is just flat out bullshit.

  11. #2636
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    04/05 and 14/15

    I’ll update with more statistics later, but specifically changes in Dec snowfall for the last 10 years vs previous decades.
    Last edited by XavierD; 09-21-2020 at 07:43 AM.

  12. #2637
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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    This is a bullshit talking point, the PNW has some of the most consistent snowfall in the country. The quality may not always be to your liking, but to talk about inconsistency or lack of quantity is just flat out bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    04/05 and 14/15
    If you look at the historical data, there are extremely low snow seasons almost every decade for as long as they've been recording this stuff. Otherwise snowfall has remained consistent or perhaps trended upwards a bit.

  13. #2638
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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    This is a bullshit talking point, the PNW has some of the most consistent snowfall in the country. The quality may not always be to your liking, but to talk about inconsistency or lack of quantity is just flat out bullshit.
    Also what is =/= what will be, and sooner than we'd like.

  14. #2639
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipedream View Post
    So it looks like 410's gonna be closed for quite awhile between Greenwater & Enumclaw. Which has me thinking about putzing through the woods from my humble abode here along I-90 and back to partake in recreational opportunities currently unavailable to Covidiot westsiders. Anyone with a pulse on GW these days know if the tavern is still slinging grub and the general store pumping gas?
    Power has been intermittent, its being back fed from Crystal generators.

    Phone and internet via temporary line and also intermittent.

    Last I heard gas station was down to premium only.

    The tavern was open over the weekend.

    Worth keeping in mind if you're up there that the GW and Crystal fire departments who would be your first responders for near any event are streched pretty tight right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  15. #2640
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    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    04/05 and 14/15

    I’ll update with more statistics later, but specifically changes in Dec snowfall for the last 10 years vs previous decades.
    Surely you're not arguing with Glade's extensive experience here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  16. #2641
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Artist Formerly Known as Leavenworth Skier View Post
    If you look at the historical data, there are extremely low snow seasons almost every decade for as long as they've been recording this stuff. Otherwise snowfall has remained consistent or perhaps trended upwards a bit.
    Yes, that’s why almost every glacier in WA is so healthy . Unless you get above the elevation of ski areas the ski season is getting shorter. Go hike in the alpine, our glaciers are disappearing.


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  17. #2642
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    You can't blame environmentalist, or even intermittent snow, on the lack of ski area expansion in the PNW. It is primarily the economies of ski resorts and the economies of mountain roads. Where on Earth have ski areas been expanding in the last two decades? As I understand, in Japan, which has more ski areas per capita than anywhere on Earth, ski areas are shutting down, not expanding. Mountain roads are extremely costly compared to the utility general society gets from them. We can barely maintain and operate the mountain roads we have in PNW, let alone think about adding more. The low hanging fruit ski area locations already have ski areas (at all the mountain passes and high roads). We are not putting a ski area in a current Wilderness area, or National Park, ever (and this is not because of evil "environmentalist" but because of federal law, supported and passed by Republicans). But there are still other locations that are on National Forest or other land designation that environmentally speaking, could allow a ski area. It's not the environmentalist or lack of snow that is blocking this, but simple economics.

    For instance, when North Cascades National Park was created, they had plans to put a tram on top of Ruby Mountain. Ruby Mountain gets plenty of snow at the top and could host an epic ski area on the North face. It is in a National Recreation area, not Wilderness, National Park, or even National Forest. National Recreation areas allow environmentally destroying uses like massive hydro electric projects. There is no reason, legally, one could not put a tram to the top of Ruby. Today, there are radio communication structures on the summit (so it is not pristine). You could put a tram up the South Side, from Colonial Creek campground, with the skiing primarily on the north side, and have to download back down to the South (because not enough snow all the way down). This area at the bottom of the tram does not get much snow so plowing and keeping the road open would not be difficult. It is flat and could allow for further parking lot creation. It's 2.5 hours from Seattle, so not close, but not far, and on roads that are rarely used in Winter, so no traffic issues. Despite all of this, this project never made it off the drawing board.

    Your best bet for ski area expansion in the PNW is from existing ski areas. But these areas are already heavily used by backcountry skiers. By expanding existing ski areas, you will not ease congestion at the ski areas or roads leading to the ski areas. You will just replace one user (backcountry skier) with another (frontcountry user). So the lesson learned, everyone should move to Spokane.

  18. #2643
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    Regarding Crystal's woes, I'm not an Ikon/Alterra fan boy. But to me, it seems any demise can be attributed to population increase in the Seattle metro area, and not specific issues with management. Not only is Seattle metro growing, but it is growing close to Crystal, i.e. Bonney Lake. There is very little developable land left in King County. More new houses are being built in Pierce County, because that is where the last remaining developable land exists and it is relatively affordable (compared to King and Snohomish). All these people buying brand new homes in Bonney Lake live closer to Crystal than you. For $600, why not buy a Crystal pass?

  19. #2644
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    You can't blame environmentalist, or even intermittent snow, on the lack of ski area expansion in the PNW.
    How involved in the Crustal MDP were you? Read up on the Sandy Butte. I think you're posting out of ignorance in this regard.

    The low hanging fruit ski area locations already have ski areas (at all the mountain passes and high roads).
    This is also not true. There's a number of excellent spots I omit specifying out of respect for my touring bretheren.

    So the lesson learned, everyone should move to Spokane.
    You first.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  20. #2645
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    Regarding Crystal's woes, I'm not an Ikon/Alterra fan boy. But to me, it seems any demise can be attributed to population increase in the Seattle metro area, and not specific issues with management.
    Anyone who has whit of experience knows that the access road used to be much better managed and that WSP used to regulate access on snow days. You're just wrong here. They are knowingly overselling passes to a public resource.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  21. #2646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Read up on the Sandy Butte.
    Sandy Butte would have made an awful ski area, particularly on Western US standards. It would be low elevation cut runs in trees relying on snowmaking. Pretty much zero alpine available. And while a US Supreme Court case brought by Methow valley locals did stall this project, as I understand, ultimately, it was economics that prevented this ski area from being built.

  22. #2647
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    Sandy Butte would have made an awful ski area, particularly on Western US standards. It would be low elevation cut runs in trees relying on snowmaking. Pretty much zero alpine available. And while a US Supreme Court case brought by Methow valley locals did stall this project, as I understand, ultimately, it was economics that prevented this ski area from being built.
    So you're saying it's because of intermittent snow? OK. And environmentalists had an impact? Cool.

    Excellent counselor.

    Do you have further expertise to offer on the Crustal MDP and the involvement of not only conservation groups but also the National Parks?
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  23. #2648
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    You can go look at the crappy terrain that one can ski from Sandy Butte here:

    https://goo.gl/maps/sRhqyuciKNVR4bFd6

    In 1977, Aspen dropped plans for Early Winters (Sandy Butte), stymied by environmental opposition and governmental delays, and went on to develop Blackcomb Mountain ski area near Whistler Resort in British Columbia.

    https://methowvalleynews.com/2016/09...s-of-activism/

    Whistler is 4 hours from Seattle, Mazama 4 hours 40 minutes (in Winter). And no mountain passes to cross to Whistler. And you get both Seattle and Vancouver market. So not surprising that development money went to Whistler rather than Mazama. Plus, I think we all agree the terrain and snow of Blackcomb crushes what one would ski from Sandy Butte.

    To me, Sandy Butte was just a really poor choice for a ski area, and that eventually made sense to the developers.
    Last edited by altasnob; 09-21-2020 at 12:39 PM.

  24. #2649
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    Viability wasn't your argument counselor, it was that environmentalists are not to blame. So nice pivot.

    Look, there's a lot of factors as to why ski areas are not being developed in the PNW. Dismissing environmentalists as a significant factor is short sighted is the nicest way I can put it.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  25. #2650
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    What specific aspect of the MUD at Crystal are you referring to? Regarding National Parks, they don't want people using lifts to access wilderness terrain (Mt. Rainier national park is also a wilderness). The boundary at Crsytal is right along the ridge to Silver King. Crystal skiers pass into the park briefly, by a less than 100 ft, on the traverse out. It was a pissing match between Crystal and the park and eventually the park capitulated and allows the traverse. Personally, I would have no problem if the park held firm and we were all forced to stay on the ridge line out to southback. When I snowboard, that's the path I have to take anyway (and I'm like 15 minutes behind the fastest skiers all the way out to three-way; walking along isn't as slow as you would think). Point being, I don't think the skiing experience would have been dramatically altered. But I'm glad the park gave in because fighting over 100 ft just empowers anti-environmentalist (you have to pick your battles).

    What other aspect? A lift up East Peak? Crystal is allowed to make a profit off the public's land. Skiers traverse from High Cambell all the way out past three way in alpine gear. I think the status quo is a good balance between lift assist, and those that like to hike exclusively for their turns.

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