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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    Charles Bowden spent a lot of very dangerous journalistic effort investigating and writing about Ciudad Juarez’s descent into murderous chaos.
    One of the reasons he thought US citizens should care was his contention that our society is on a distinct trajectory to resemble Mexico insomuch as we’re fast wedging the middle class away in favor of a model of mega rich oligarchs and a totally powerless class of millions and millions of working poor.

  2. #27
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    i heard Elysiams ski in jeans
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  4. #29
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    I’m an architect who works on low rise buildings, generally 1 to 5 floors. I used to do forensic investigation work as well. First things that pop into my head are improper shoring, improper reinforcement (less likely, due to required inspections), loading the slab before it’s cured, and related - weak concrete that hasn’t been found. It’s possible it’s a little of everything (and even more likely some other weirder thing). Suffice it to say no one knows except the pro’s involved and they’ll all be searching for a way to point the finger at the other guy.

    Also, I work near the Louisiana border and sometimes do small projects there. According to the contractors and developers we work with, it’s still one of the places where a grocery sack full of money left in the right office gets things “done”. So state oversight is probably lacking at best.

    Someone mentioned 3rd party inspection agencies maybe not doing their job, but in my experience that’s really unlikely. Assuming they are independent it’s in their best interest to be sticklers about following specs. I’ve never met an inspection / testing group who didn’t relish finding some kind of error.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by brice618 View Post

    Someone mentioned 3rd party inspection agencies maybe not doing their job, but in my experience that’s really unlikely. Assuming they are independent it’s in their best interest to be sticklers about following specs. I’ve never met an inspection / testing group who didn’t relish finding some kind of error.
    Or finding that sack of money..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    One of the reasons he thought US citizens should care was his contention that our society is on a distinct trajectory to resemble Mexico insomuch as we’re fast wedging the middle class away in favor of a model of mega rich oligarchs and a totally powerless class of millions and millions of working poor.
    Middle class % has been steady for decades the crux of the biscuit is that inflation from 1970 to 2020 has increased over 500%. Add in the skyrocketing costs of education and housing I’m thinking we are close to eating the rich unless something changes.

  7. #32
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    About 5 years ago a friend of mine said "if it wasn't for cheap Chinese shit at Walmart there already would've been a revolution in this country". And now suddenly that shit ain't quite as cheap as it was...

    The recent Business Roundtable statement makes me think the big guys are starting to get a little worried. https://www.businessroundtable.org/b...-all-americans

    I mean clearly they didn't all just find Jeebus, so what's their motivation except to deflect?

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by brice618 View Post
    I’m an architect who works on low rise buildings, generally 1 to 5 floors. I used to do forensic investigation work as well. First things that pop into my head are improper shoring, improper reinforcement (less likely, due to required inspections), loading the slab before it’s cured, and related - weak concrete that hasn’t been found. It’s possible it’s a little of everything (and even more likely some other weirder thing). Suffice it to say no one knows except the pro’s involved and they’ll all be searching for a way to point the finger at the other guy.
    I think they loaded the floor with crap just like they would do in any moment frame or PT deck building under construction, not giving a thought that the exterior walls weren't up. But in moment frame and PT buildings the exterior walls are non load bearing curtain walls, and this building was probably of a construction that used a heavy steel stud exterior bearing wall.

  9. #34
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    after really looking close at the drone footage...i think it was the crane operator or the steel fabricator that did it... i.e. bad radios, hungover operator, started the lift before disengaged from beam, crane tower shifted.. whatever.......i think that last red beam that is still attached to the crane line was not disconnected and as the cable was raised it caused the steel beam to put leverage on the front of the building maybe over the curtain wall and once the top floor gave, and as it fell the ones below built up more mass and energy and then downward dominoes....

    (all my arrows arent exactly where they are supposed to be) upward force on that attached beam to crane line would have first pushed down on outer front edge of floor (where those single high cmu runs are located), as it collapsed, the force would have moved back to the next standing section of concrete (yellow line on floor in 1st pic) , then break that - collapse, then back to next section..

    Crane tower looks bent in pic 2 and pic 4, maybe it gave and pulled away

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    broke from the top, resting on the bench...can see the break line right at the point where the perpendicular steel columns are tied to poured floor.....the bottom foundation and lower floors look ok from birds eye....
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    imho

    ....
    Last edited by MiCol; 10-14-2019 at 10:04 PM.
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  10. #35
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    Attachment 297880


    otherwise you would have to have some columns running all the way to foundation collapse - but that would seem to have taken out floors 1-9 too which did not happen
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  11. #36
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    MICol, watch the first video again. I don't think that crane holding the red steel could have put enough lateral load on the rest of the structure to push it to failure without some massive operator errors

    1. The collapse started behind the crane from the street angle
    2. The nylon slings choking the load would have slid and cut on the beam edges under a heavy lateral load. Ask me, I've seen it happen twice in my career.
    3. I can't truly tell from the drone video, but it appears the beam the crane is holding has something holding it to the column plate. Maybe a single drift pin as they they landed it. Maybe it's just bad angles on the shots.
    4. They would have had to pushed hard enough on the pieces that were already stood up to bend the 10-12' columns hard enough to tweak the floor below it. It's all light steel, so it would have given quite a ways at first.

    Maybe the beam could have been spinning as it came down and hit a column hard enough to shock load the structure, but that would have been some massive operator and ground crew errors.

    Things I noticed from the videos:

    The building was already collapsing before the video started. There must have been some other signs to trigger a bystander on the street to start recording. Popping, banging, cracking, etc. Someone knows more here.
    Construction is a steel frame with slabs on pan decking, reinforcement is visible.
    No apparent reshoring, though pan decking is usually good for loading 7-14 days after you pour and reshoring is labor intensive
    No visible signs of post tensioning in slabs (not common practice in composite decks)
    Pallets of CMU were stacked on the top floors, but a standard pallet is 3600#, so only ~225 psf. Not tiny, but it could overload a single frame if you pack them in too tight.
    I've concluded that DJSapp was never DJSapp, and Not DJSapp is also not DJSapp, so that means he's telling the truth now and he was lying before.

  12. #37
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    I've been thinking about this.

  13. #38
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    I saw a crane, locally, the truss frame
    doing some nice torsion as it stopped and started without any load.

    It sure made me wonder what the effect of that was on the crane supports
    anchored to the building on the way up.

    That kind of force, osculating and twisting, is not what the building was designed for.
    And that's a steel frame with poured floors. I still don't get that.

    This accident ...
    That is seriously messed up.
    VIBES to those injured and killed.

  14. #39
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    Why is nobody talking about the lazer sharks? What are they hiding?

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    I've been thinking about this.
    We were afraid that might happen...


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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    I've been thinking about this.
    I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    We were afraid that might happen...


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    Harry you are on your game! I agree with DJ I just dont see the crane being the cause of this. One single nylon strap would have certainly cut and failed way before it could have exerted enough force to put the kind of torsional stresses required to fail a deck.
    And Brice is also correct, the experts will spend copious amounts of time and money to point the blame at someone else.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post

    And that's a steel frame with poured floors. I still don't get that.
    You can stop right there. Thanks for stopping in.

  19. #44
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    Engineer weighs in on Hard Rock Hotel collapse: 'Logically it doesn't make sense'

    “It was a lot worse than I could have imagined,” Zehner said. “And I’ve seen the videos of the collapse and it’s kind of hard to figure out exactly what was going on there."

    "The one thing I find hard to understand is the collapse started at the rear of the building (by Rampart and Iberville streets) but it wound up, you had collapsed slabs all the way on the front end of the build which is 300 feet away (on Canal Street)," he said. "So I don’t know how that progression worked like that. I guess that’s part of what the investigation is going to reveal.”


    https://www.theadvertiser.com/story/...ns/3979427002/

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJSapp View Post
    watch the first video again. I don't think that crane holding the red steel could have put enough lateral load on the rest of the structure to push it to failure without some massive operator errors
    we dont get to see what happend prior to the start of this failure from first video. happened on a Saturday morning, so my guess is less people on job, less outside and possibly internal oversight, maybe not the regular operator working the crane, maybe some key people hungover from Friday night in NOLA, not sure of all the dynamics at play. Not sure if they will do a NTSB type level investigation or even who that would be other than Orleans Parish inpsections. I dont think think the State level is involved in a building erection in a local municipality before an accident occurs. Engineers and Architects would be licensed and I guess State is involved now.

    my MMQB guess is still on the crane load, the operator, the weight of the staged materials on the top deck...I wonder how closely they will get to inspect it all before the building is demo'd for safety. I think the statements from the workers on hand will be important and examination of what's left along with that drone footage. Could have been a lot worse. I bet weekday crew levels would have been much heavier with many more workers in harms way. So, at least if something as tragic as this is going to happen, maybe this was the better time than midweek. vibes again. as people have said , lots of finger pointing, posturing and lawyering up will take place going forward.
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  21. #46
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    those involved
    https://www.nola.com/news/business/a...66f0b4aa1.html

    "As the investigation into the collapse of the Hard Rock Hotel New Orleans on Canal Street begins to ramp up, attention will likely turn to the companies involved in the project.

    The $85 million hotel was one of the largest developments New Orleans has seen in recent years. And, as is common on such projects, there are dozens of firms involved in various parts of the process.

    Here's a look at the major businesses behind the development.

    Developer: 1031 Canal Street
    1031 Canal Street is a consortium between Kailas Companies President Mohan Kailas, Citadel Builders President Denzel Clark and All-Star Electric CEO Todd Trosclair. Kailas has a majority stake in the firm.


    Kailas Companies is listed as the owner on plans filed with the city. Both the company and the project have had a controversial history in New Orleans.

    New Orleans Film Festival Opening Night kicks off a week cinematic in scope
    Mohan Kailas and Indra Kailas at the New Orleans Film Festival Opening Party 2017 at the Orpheum Theater. Wednesday, October 11, 2017. (Josh Brasted Photo)

    The development is built on the former site of a Woolworth's store that was the site of anti-segregation lunch-counter sit-ins, and the planned hotel drew protests from historic preservationists and others who argued the project was too large to be allowed on the edge of the French Quarter.

    Two years after plans for the hotel were approved in 2011, a member of the Kailas family leading the project, Praveen Kailas, pleaded guilty in federal court to overbilling the Road Home program for rental properties. Stewardship of the 1031 Canal project was passed to other members of the Kailas family. Mohan Kailas is listed on the company's website as its president, owner and founder.

    Trosclair's firm is also an electrical contractor on the project.


    General contractor: Citadel Builders
    Citadel Builders is a Metairie-based construction firm that has worked on large projects throughout Louisiana. In the New Orleans area, that includes renovation of the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center's Great Hall, renovations to the Mercedes-Benz Superdome and Smoothie King Center, and the new McDonogh 35 High School.

    Denzel Clark is listed as the company's president on his Linked In profile. The Citadel website also lists Matt Peace as the Hard Rock Hotel project manager, Tim Thornton as the project superintendent and Chris Berry as "lead design."

    Architect: Harry Baker Smith Architects
    This New Orleans-based firm has designed numerous projects throughout the city, including the Hilton Hotel in the French Quarter and the NOLA Motorsports Park in Jefferson Parish. The firm was also tapped to design the never-built Trump International Hotel and Tower in New Orleans.


    Harry Baker Smith and Harry Baker Smith Jr. are listed on the firm's website as its principals.

    Structural engineer: Heaslip Engineering
    Heaslip Engineering, based in Metairie, has worked on a variety of projects in the New Orleans area including the new Holy Cross High School in Gentilly, the Robert's Fresh Market on St. Claude Avenue, the parking garage at Lakeside Mall and the Pontchartrain Hotel.

    James B. Heaslip II is listed as the company's founder and principal engineer on its website.

    Mechanical engineer: Moses Engineers
    This is a New Orleans-based mechanical and electrical engineering company. Ted H. Moses, W. Howard Moses and Lenny Zimmermann are listed as the firm's principals on the company's website.

    Subcontractors
    A list provided by Citadel shows 50 different subcontractors and vendors involved in the project.

    Workers on the site this weekend said they were with the King Company, listed as working on drywall, and RMS Masonry. RMS Masonry was not on the Citadel list."
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJSapp View Post

    Maybe the beam could have been spinning as it came down and hit a column hard enough to shock load the structure, but that would have been some massive operator and ground crew errors.
    I think this is another viable possibility given the weekend work and maybe some folks serving in roles that they typically do not. I believe Crane operators are licensed and have extensive training ,etc. So, not just anyone is up there doing that work, at least shouldn't be.
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  23. #48
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    Non Union Masons laying blocks on Saturday, riggers and operators have weekends off so they loaded up materials on Friday afternoon..

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiCol View Post
    I think this is another viable possibility given the weekend work and maybe some folks serving in roles that they typically do not. I believe Crane operators are licensed and have extensive training ,etc. So, not just anyone is up there doing that work, at least shouldn't be.
    I doubt the beam and or crane had anything to do with it. First the structure started to collapse on a corner, a long ways away from the location of the structure that the red iron was constructing. Second, the beam appears to already be bolted off, making it impossible to be subjected to load spin. Again, a whole lot of speculation based on a few youtube photos. But, I have been around cranes and construction my whole adult life, and put myself through college in the seat of a crane, and my structural engineering degree (and staying in a plethora of Holiday Inn Expresses) point to this being something different. I would love to review the design calcs on this.
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  25. #50
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    So.....wtf is cmu?

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