China Bans South Park

[ill-advised strategy]

This whole NBA discussion is simply a question whether corporations have other interests than shareholders. It has been a long standing policy of the US government to promote freedom and democracy abroad. We need to define what role corporations play. Do they do the bare minimum to obey the laws and maximize profits or should they have some higher responsibility? We should also ask what responsibilities have to ending racial injustice, especially when the majority of their players come from a race suffers the injustice.

And finally, black people who put money before values are racists. White people who put money before values are genius businessmen.

This^^^
Well said!

[skifishbum]

Ya know back in the. MJ days watched a lot
Hoops
Now I turn it on and hear Steven A Smiths voice
No matter what
And turn on a hockey game

[SumJongGuy]

Ya know back in the. MJ days watched a lot
Hoops
Now I turn it on and hear Steven A Smiths voice
No matter what
And turn on a hockey game

Same here. Really got in to the Lakers vs Celtics rivalry, then Pistons vs Bulls was pretty good too. Haven't really been drawn in to an NBA series this century though. I also hate the way NCAA has turned in to one and done for all the good players.. but probably not mentally mature enough to be good NBA role models. Get off my lawn LOL..

[Thurgood Jenkins]

In the 80's social pressure forced change with divestiture in companies that dealt with South Africa, defacto holding business accountable for seemingly supporting Apartheid. After the Exxon Valdex, same social pressure forced change in the oil business.

Heck, I buy fair trade coffee. Can't I buy a fair trade basketball shoes?

[MultiVerse]

In the 80's social pressure forced change with divestiture in companies that dealt with South Africa, defacto holding business accountable for seemingly supporting Apartheid. After the Exxon Valdex, same social pressure forced change in the oil business.

Heck, I buy fair trade coffee. Can't I buy a fair trade basketball shoes?

Doing business in China is incompatible with Western values. Anyone working in China, whether citizen or foreigner, needs the goodwill of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). There's no other option, there's no dissent.

In contrast, the anti-apartheid campaign was organized and supported by Western governments through sanctions etc., with individuals and businesses playing a supporting role, not a leading role. It's almost always the case that without government support any calls for international human rights and democracy become meaningless and inconsequential.

If the United States government put it's weight behind supporting Hong Kong then companies could join in with some expectation that their efforts aren't totally useless and fiduciarily irresponsible. Unless governments take a stand, individual efforts are more likely to achieve results when the steps they take are concrete and focused on specific goals, not diffused by responding to every situation everywhere.

[SumJongGuy]

The Chinese regime is only slightly less brutal than the North Korean regime when it comes to human rights. Main difference is we all love the TVs and smartphones we get for 1/3rd of the price we'd pay if we had to make them ourselves here. Otherwise we'd see the same kind or sanctions against China that we have against North Korea... Both already have nukes so it's not about that..

[Benny Profane]

Doing business in China is incompatible with Western values. Anyone working in China, whether citizen or foreigner, needs the goodwill of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). There's no other option, there's no dissent.

In contrast, the anti-apartheid campaign was organized and supported by Western governments through sanctions etc., with individuals and businesses playing a supporting role, not a leading role. It's almost always the case that without government support any calls for international human rights and democracy become meaningless and inconsequential.

If the United States government put it's weight behind supporting Hong Kong then companies could join in with some expectation that their efforts aren't totally useless and fiduciarily irresponsible. Unless governments take a stand, individual efforts are more likely to achieve results when the steps they take are concrete and focused on specific goals, not diffused by responding to every situation everywhere.

The Chinese car market is three times bigger than ours, and growing.

[MultiVerse]

The Chinese car market is three times bigger than ours, and growing.

The hope was Western companies would demonstrate the many advantages of liberal democracy to foreigners but the reality is companies just suffer political backlash when they can't get things right. And they can't get things right almost by definition. Their only choices are bad choices. The only way the NBA and the players can fully support freedom of expression is by exiting China.


If anyone thinks China will back down, except at the slim margins, has to understand the nationalistic movement and the national pride among the Chinese people. It's one country, no arguments. They call it "national humiliation education":


The one thing that is terribly misunderstood, and often ignored, by the western press and those critical of China is that 1.4 billion Chinese citizens stand united when it comes to the territorial integrity of China and the country’s sovereignty over her homeland. This issue is non-negotiable.

...

Any Chinese person who has gone to elementary school or watched television news can explain the tale of China’s 100 years of humiliation. Starting with the Opium Wars in the 19th century, foreign powers bullied a weak and backward China into turning Hong Kong and Macau into European colonies. Students must memorize the unequal treaties the Qing dynasty signed during that period.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/11/b...core-ios-share

[hercule33]

All you seem to do is entrench and deflect. Logic, reason, and analysis that is on point, escapes you. But yes, climate change is just about racism, too.

Get over yourself and get back to the Tahoe thread. You must be a complete bitch to live with offline.

I know that it may seem like that to you and I can be a bitch sometimes but this topic is pretty simple. China banned South Park. Duh, it’s what they do. Does not make it right or in alignment with American values but it was totally predictable. Ditto for the NBA putting profits ahead of free speech. Not right but no one should be surprised.

What got me is the racial and generational undertones in the arguments. People were correctly outraged at LeBron’s statements but forgot that he was not kowtowing to China, he was kowtowing to the NBA. Don’t post pics of LeBron in some communist uniform when he is just a “company man” who put his private employer and money first. That does not sound like a communist to me, that sounds like plenty of Americans I know. But let’s direct our outrage on the NBA’s stance on China and free speech at a black employee of the NBA touting the company line. Does not sound fair to me in the least and a seems a bit racially motivated. Where are all the pics of white NBA execs in Communist uniforms who actually did kowtow to China? Oh wait, I am deflecting...

Then there are the thinly veiled generational arguments so let’s get this out of the way: my generation needs to do more but when baby boomers try to blame my generation for what is happening, I have to call bullshit. For the record, I did not bring up the generational argument in this thread. But you can’t ignore that my generation is still not the major voting block and what they are trying to change is 30 years of policy set in place by politicians elected by baby boomers. You also can’t ignore that baby boomers still are the major voting block and therefore could fix a lot of the problems with their vote. So I get passionate when baby boomers say things like younger generation needs to mobilize like we did in the 70s because what my generation needs to do is fix the problems that baby boomers voted on in the 80s, 90s and 2000s and you know what the baby boomers could also mobilize.

I know that these are hard truths. I know that it is easier for some in this thread to blame LeBron and millennials for what is happening with China rather than look at ways to fix the problem because fixing the problem would bring up ugly truths about how we got here and how everyone is responsible. But hey this is the internet so by all means let’s go back to blaming LeBron and millennials.

[SumJongGuy]

If anyone thinks China will back down, except at the slim margins, has to understand the nationalistic movement and the national pride among the Chinese people. It's one country, no arguments. They call it "national humiliation education":

For them, ignorance is bliss. I've worked fairly closely with several Chinese nationals. Though they remain extremely proud of their culture and national pride, they do see some of what they're missing when they get to work here in the states for longer periods of time.

But, ya, the hangover from the colonial days is still harsh. There is no good answer that makes everyone even remotely happy.

[Benny Profane]

For them, ignorance is bliss. I've worked fairly closely with several Chinese nationals. Though they remain extremely proud of their culture and national pride, they do see some of what they're missing when they get to work here in the states for longer periods of time.

But, ya, the hangover from the colonial days is still harsh. There is no good answer that makes everyone even remotely happy.

Oh really. And Americans don't display their ignorance of the world every fucking day? They don't follow bullshit blindly?

[Thurgood Jenkins]

Anta is boycotting American freedoms. That's a two way street.

from Wikipedia:

"In response to a tweet by a Houston Rockets' official in support of pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong, and the NBA's support for freedom of expression, Anta Sports began a boycott of the NBA in October 2019."

So when is supporting Anta's ski brands support for the Chinese oppression? Salomon, Atomic, Arcteryx, Wilson, Louisville Slugger, Suunto, etc... The local Arcteryx rep is now working for the Chinese govt?

[SumJongGuy]

Oh really. And Americans don't display their ignorance of the world every fucking day? They don't follow bullshit blindly?

All I know is more people want to move from there to here after seeing both places than want to move from here to there..

[Benny Profane]

Well then, I guess they are showing their ignorance of our society. Or just want to own assets outright.

[hercule33]

In my opinion, the best way to deal with China is to strengthen ourselves at home. The more divided America is, the weaker it is and the best thing for dealing with China is a strong America, IMO. Or to put it another way, we should be less concerned with what China is doing and more focused on our problems at home.

[Benny Profane]

Cats out of the bag, toothpaste out of tube.

[ex-powderbroker]

if our chief export is culture, losing access to the biggest market sounds like something a competent president would look at.

thanks, obama

[hercule33]

if our chief export is culture, losing access to the biggest market sounds like something a competent president would look at.

thanks, obama

When did we really have access to the Chinese market? Communist regime has been there for some time with their censorship saying what the Chinese can and can’t see.

[SumJongGuy]

When did we really have access to the Chinese market? Communist regime has been there for some time with their censorship saying what the Chinese can and can’t see.

Isn't this entire conversation about the current NBA access to the Chinese market and their access to our consumer markets? The tweet about Hong Kong and minor revolutionary activity there is just the current trigger.

[hercule33]

Isn't this entire conversation about the current NBA access to the Chinese market and their access to our consumer markets? The tweet about Hong Kong and minor revolutionary activity there is just the current trigger.

I would say that this is a conversation about the price of access to the Chinese market, whether it be the NBA or South Park. That access does not come for free and it is not unlimited.

[ex-powderbroker]

When did we really have access to the Chinese market? Communist regime has been there for some time with their censorship saying what the Chinese can and can’t see.

We never fully did, these seeds were planted when they were allowed in the WTO and we never enforced any of the rules, from the bullshit IP transfers to the half chinese ownership requirements.

But, I still wish we had someone that cared about taking a stand on these issues and not their daughters patents or whatever.

[hercule33]

We never fully did, these seeds were planted when they were allowed in the WTO and we never enforced any of the rules, from the bullshit IP transfers to the half chinese ownership requirements.

But, I still wish we had someone that cared about taking a stand on these issues and not their daughters patents or whatever.

Yeah, this is a complicated issue. On one hand, we stand for human rights on the other there are business and national security interests. We are sending 1200 more troops to our close ally Saudi Arabia, not exactly a beacon of free speech and human rights, while we are complaining about the lack of free speech in China. Then we are having our own free speech discussions about how much can and should corporations silence their employees in the name of profits. And that’s not touching the question of how much should we put up with China’s censorship and human rights abuses in order to export our culture.

[SumJongGuy]

I would say that this is a conversation about the price of access to the Chinese market, whether it be the NBA or South Park. That access does not come for free and it is not unlimited.

Agreed!

[ill-advised strategy]

Smart people:
Who needs who more: China or the US? In other words, if the entire trade relationship is severed who sufferers more? Or is it even?

[Viva]

The U.S. needs / wants stuff. How much of that is critical, I do not know. China needs capital via the sales of it products. This is critical for their global ambitions.