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Thread: Ask the experts

  1. #10601
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andeh View Post
    How big is that ultrasonic Gunder? 6L? I was actually just thinking about getting one yesterday. I know you can get away with like a 0.5L one for just a chain, but I figured why not get something big enough to clean a cassette too?
    Donít remember. I got this one at Grizzly industrial. They are all Chinese units and a bunch of companies sell the exact same unit with different rebranding. Just make sure you get a square unit thatís actually big enough to fit the entire cassette. Otherwise you will warp the cassette if you try it only partially submergedÖthsts a mistake with an xx1 cassette you will only do once.

  2. #10602
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    Gunder, how much did that bad boy cost if you don't mind me asking?

  3. #10603
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    Quote Originally Posted by east or bust View Post
    Gunder, how much did that bad boy cost if you don't mind me asking?
    I got it for under $100 on sale. Typically that size is $2-250

    I use it a bunch for non bike stuff too.

  4. #10604
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunder View Post
    I got it for under $100 on sale. Typically that size is $2-250

    I use it a bunch for non bike stuff too.
    Are you regreasing the pully wheels when you clean like that?
    www.dpsskis.com
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    formerly an ambassador for a few others, but the ski industry is... interesting.
    Fukt: a very small amount of snow.

  5. #10605
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    Since I decided this is lube chart day, hereís single application longevity.

    Dry road:

    Attachment 459992

    Dry off road (dry contamination):

    Attachment 459993

    I guess guys concerned about longevity on their gravel enduros should give Rex Black Diamond + Race Day Spray a try.
    Quoting for Gunder. See the one at the bottom of the second chart, the one with the worst performance? That's Boeshield. It also wears out your drivetrain faster and costs you some watts.

    Looks like the Wend wax is not represetative of modern chain waxes in that it is terrible. Until one has tried Rex, MSW, or Silca's offerings, one can't really comment on whether wax is better tha drip-on lubes.

    Those of us who wax don't need an ultrasonic cleaner because our drivetrains stay clean. A mini crock pot is both cheaper and smaller than even a cheap USC. Plus it's way faster to simply remove the chain and dip it than removing the whole drivetrain to USC it.

    The resistance to wax must, at this point, be some kind of near-religious contrarionism. It's a better way to lube one's drivetrain, so anyone continuing to use drip on lubes in the face of this knowledge must have a motive other than performance.

    More info: https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/lubetesting/

    But those of you who prefer to keep using drip-on lubes and wearing out your drivetrains faster are actually doing all of us a favor by supporting the industry, so keep on keeping on!
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  6. #10606
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    I’m pretty confident I didn’t straight up lie anywhere, and don’t believe I’ve even used hyperbole.

    I find it amusing that the people who haven’t tried hot waxing are very adamant that it must take boatloads of effort, while everyone who’s actually tried it is like ‘yeah, it’s pretty simple’, but you assume we’re just lying. Like, it really is quite simple, and it really does only take a few minutes of active time to do each time.

    Regarding overall time savings:

    For any given time I go to wax my chain, I’m probably spending about 3 more minutes actively doing something vs. if I just dripped on some lube instead.

    But, I don’t need to wax my chain as often as I’d need to drip on lube to keep it running with low wear, so that’s some time savings.

    And I barely ever need to clean the chain to keep it free of contamination, so that’s some time savings.

    And if I do need to clean the chain (only after riding in the wet, which is rare for me) I just swish it around in hot water for 90 seconds total, which is much quicker than any other cleaning method, so that’s some time savings.

    Added up, it’s less time overall to keep the chain running in an efficient/low wear condition vs. drip lube, for my riding, in my conditions.

    And just for some context, I’m not a guy who keeps his bike spotless or anything. I’ve literally never washed my current mountain bike in the three years I’ve had it. But I will put in the effort to make sure I’m not replacing chains and cassettes unnecessarily.

    If all you ever do is drip on some lube and never clean your chain it will absolutely be less time consuming. But the lifespan of your chain and cassette will also decrease drastically - not just a few percent. It can easily be only a small fraction of the lifespan compared to a hot waxed chain.
    now you are lying about lying

    like Donald Trump with a hot pot

    if you wana hot wax ok

    but don't tell us its faster
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  7. #10607
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    Quote Originally Posted by grskier View Post
    Are you regreasing the pully wheels when you clean like that?
    I typically do not put pulley wheels or any bearings in the Ultrasonic. So No, that drive train had 3500+ miles on it and thats mostly in wet PNW conditions. It all went in the garbage! I just cleaned it one last time to inspect the wear. Most of the wear was on the lower half of the cassette. Which is wear you tend to want it, as that part is almost always made of stronger metal that wears better than the larger rings. I am running a 30 tooth sprocket, when I ran a 32, the wear was mostly in the top half of the cassette. You can pull data that also supports this directly from the SRAM app if you are running an AXS system, but it's still good to inspect the physical wear. The pulley wheels and the front sprocket were toast, along with the chain. Chances are I could have gotten a bit more mileage out of the cassette, but I replaced it all at once. Also notice the wear on the derailleur cage, that derailleur had developed very worn pivots so it got chucked too.


    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post

    Those of us who wax don't need an ultrasonic cleaner because our drivetrains stay clean.
    Thats 100% bullshit. You may not think it's dirty, but I assure you wax does attract contamination that does cause wear damage. There isn't a lube in the world that will not attract contamination. It simply does not exist.

    Secondly there is a lot of snake oil salesmen in the bike lube industry (bike industry in general). I have zero trust for any of them, let alone a "test" by someone that sells predominantly over priced lubes (with stupid high margins in them). Additionally his digital chain checker uses a cheap Chinese caliper head, those things are notoriously un-reliable or accurate. He's also not testing any of it in real world conditions and is only adding contamination halfway into his tests. In the real world you start to introduce contamination immediately.

    Use whatever you like, and whatever you think is best for you, but trying to use bullshit claims to push your favorite snake oil is pointless arguing. I ride with a lot of very high level riders and we all put a shit ton of mileage on our bikes. We all use different lubes (we each have our favorites and all for different reasons) in the same PNW conditions and I can tell you there isn't a single one that provides for a significantly longer lasting drive train. If one really was significantly better than the rest, we would all be using it. At the end of the day a regular deep cleaning and consistent, regular application of ANY lube will provide the longest drive train life.

    Also, FWIW Wend is the OEM for many of the other wax brand products out there both for ski wax and bike lube wax....

  8. #10608
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    You guys can suck the fun out anything to do with biking, huh?

  9. #10609
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    now you are lying about lying

    like Donald Trump with a hot pot

    if you wana hot wax ok

    but don't tell us its faster
    FFS

  10. #10610
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    now you are lying about lying

    like Hunter's laptop? (Sorry, couldn't resist)

    if you wana hot wax ok

    but don't tell us its faster
    Go on...
    What part was he lying about?

    I've been hot waxing for years now so yes, I've got the process pretty well down and everything JBDJ said was dead on fact.
    So, again, what part was a lie?

    Actually, the process I use is even faster. I rotate between two chains. By doing so it merely takes the time to take one chain off and put the other on.
    The actual rewaxing is done at my convenience. I'll be doing yard work, turn on the crockpot, toss in the chain.
    Bonus points for cutting chain wear in half.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jer View Post
    After the first three seconds, Corbet's is really pretty average.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Malcolm View Post
    I mean, it's not your fault. They say talent skips a generation.
    But hey, I'm sure your kids will be sharp as tacks.

  11. #10611
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    Guys, there is a perfectly good "queso" thread for pedantically arguing about the pros and cons of your particular chain lube method of choice.

  12. #10612
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_B View Post
    Guys, there is a perfectly good "queso" thread for pedantically arguing about the pros and cons of your particular chain lube method of choice.
    The funny part is, it isn't even about what is better. No one really argues that.
    The misinformation (fake news-again, couldn't resist) is that it's this huge, complicated, time consuming process when, in fact, it's anything but.

    It gets tiring hearing people who have never done it talk as if they have.
    Worse when they call someone a liar with no knowledge of what their talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jer View Post
    After the first three seconds, Corbet's is really pretty average.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Malcolm View Post
    I mean, it's not your fault. They say talent skips a generation.
    But hey, I'm sure your kids will be sharp as tacks.

  13. #10613
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    Gunder, the industry thanks you for regularly replacing wear parts. I'll just keep getting 5000 miles out of a chain, thank you very much.


    Quote Originally Posted by John_B View Post
    Guys, there is a perfectly good "queso" thread for pedantically arguing about the pros and cons of your particular chain lube method of choice.
    Fair point. I'll stop cunting up this one.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  14. #10614
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Until one has tried Rex, MSW, or Silca's offerings, one can't really comment on whether wax is better tha drip-on lubes.
    This.

    Has anyone tried one of those three hot melt waxes specifically and either been disappointed with the performance, or felt like the effort involved was too high?

    I worked at a shop that sold Boeshield. Everyone had tried it, no one used it. Have a can of it in my tool chest to use for other things, but not my chain.

    Went from Pedroís SynLube to Pedroís Icewax, back to SynLube, to Squirt, to trying Silca Super Secret Drip briefly, finally to Molten Speed Wax. (There were others in there, but those were the ones I stuck with for any length of time.). After using MSW there is no way Iím going back.

    Gunder, MSW really does stay shockingly clean - in dry conditions. These types of waxes shed wax particles as they wear as well, so dust gets carried out with that.

    But water/mud is going to overwhelm the shedding effect and carry contamination inside. If youíre riding in wet/mud either you need to clean the chain constantly (for any lube) or acknowledge that high levels are wear are going to be inevitable due to the grit the water has carried inside and just accept that.

  15. #10615
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Gunder, the industry thanks you for regularly replacing wear parts. I'll just keep getting 5000 miles out of a chain, thank you very much.




    Fair point. I'll stop cunting up this one.
    Need a general chain lube/maintenance thread. Queso is specific to Queso, right?

  16. #10616
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    I'm curious where everyone in these lube discussions lives. Is this just a dry climate vs wet climate thing?

    It reminds me a little bit of the tire sealant discussions. The desert people have strong opinions about what sealant lasts longest. The northwest people shrug and kinda dump whatever into the tire because it lasts forever.

  17. #10617
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    I'm curious where everyone in these lube discussions lives. Is this just a dry climate vs wet climate thing?

    It reminds me a little bit of the tire sealant discussions. The desert people have strong opinions about what sealant lasts longest. The northwest people shrug and kinda dump whatever into the tire because it lasts forever.
    Tahoe. Almost exclusively dry riding (I think Iíve been clear on that). Pretty good moondust by mid-season.

  18. #10618
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Gunder, the industry thanks you for regularly replacing wear parts. I'll just keep getting 5000 miles out of a chain, thank you very much.
    Fair point. I'll stop cunting up this one.
    At least for me said parts are a tax write off. I work just enough in that industry (resorts) to keep it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post

    Gunder, MSW really does stay shockingly clean - in dry conditions. These types of waxes shed wax particles as they wear as well, so dust gets carried out with that.
    All lubes shed particles. Nothing different there. Stick your chain in an ultrasonic. I guarantee you there will be a shit ton of contamination, dirt grit and what not left in the bottom when you drain it. Until you actually do that, you cant say there is not contamination and that its "clean".

  19. #10619
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    I'm curious where everyone in these lube discussions lives. Is this just a dry climate vs wet climate thing?

    It reminds me a little bit of the tire sealant discussions. The desert people have strong opinions about what sealant lasts longest. The northwest people shrug and kinda dump whatever into the tire because it lasts forever.
    That's a great point.
    Here in the SW, every ride leaves a coating of dust. The plus is that a quick water rinse and it's all squeaky clean. Ideal hot wax conditions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jer View Post
    After the first three seconds, Corbet's is really pretty average.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Malcolm View Post
    I mean, it's not your fault. They say talent skips a generation.
    But hey, I'm sure your kids will be sharp as tacks.

  20. #10620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunder View Post
    All lubes shed particles. Nothing different there.
    I mean, all due respect, but itís quite different.

  21. #10621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunder View Post
    that drive train had 3500+ miles on it and thats mostly in wet PNW conditions. It all went in the garbage! I just cleaned it one last time to inspect the wear. ..
    I'm calling dibs on the next ee Wings crankset you throw out.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  22. #10622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roxtar View Post
    Go on...
    What part was he lying about?

    I've been hot waxing for years now so yes, I've got the process pretty well down and everything JBDJ said was dead on fact.
    So, again, what part was a lie?

    Actually, the process I use is even faster. I rotate between two chains. By doing so it merely takes the time to take one chain off and put the other on.
    The actual rewaxing is done at my convenience. I'll be doing yard work, turn on the crockpot, toss in the chain.
    Bonus points for cutting chain wear in half.
    he started by saying hot waxing is faster and then he said well maybe it takes 3 minutes longer

    pro tip Donald trump would never admit he lied

    regardless of what anyone thinks about hot waxing pro or con

    taking a chain off and putting it back on is gona take more time than not taking a chain off
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  23. #10623
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chupacabra View Post
    I'm calling dibs on the next ee Wings crankset you throw out.
    Well that part didnt get tossed..... I'm not exactly made of money. That being said those have save me a fortune in not breaking anymore carbon cranks.

  24. #10624
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    he started by saying hot waxing is faster and then he said well maybe it takes 3 minutes longer

    pro tip Donald trump would never admit he lied

    regardless of what anyone thinks about hot waxing pro or con

    taking a chain off and putting it back on is gona take more time than not taking a chain off

    OK, going to try this one more time: each application of hot wax takes slightly more time, but I apply it less often, I virtually never have to do any cleaning, and when I do clean, the cleaning takes much less time.

    So overall Iím spending less time maintaining my chain this way versus with drip lube. And the chain is lasting much, much longer

  25. #10625
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted reborn View Post
    You guys can suck the fun out anything to do with biking, huh?
    QFT


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    However many are in a shit ton.

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