Ask the experts

[simple]

Shirk gets it. 1x was the catalyst. Shimano missed that boat and look how it killed their OEM market

[shirk]

What I am saying is the the difference between what Weigle is doing and what some unknown has done with a horst / four bar IS marketing.

Once we all moved to 1x what Weigle was doing lost any competitive advantage.

How about you tells us exactly what kinematic feature that is achieved on a current short link multi link layout that cannot be achieved with horst / four bar and how it has an advantage?

[Conundrum]

The winning side was clear and toast had us on a nice linear path. Throw a couple shirk tokens in the shock and shit ramped up fast. That’s a no bar post too. Went for a ride on my multilink which I enjoy, played with dogs, had a glass of wine and made elk meatball pasta, and now enjoying a bookers in the hot tub. Not a single bar... my leverage curve is now proving regressive.

[tellybele]

It's like an exercise to see how far you can get away from actual mountain biking.

[LeeLau]

What I am saying is the the difference between what Weigle is doing and what some unknown has done with a horst / four bar IS marketing.

Once we all moved to 1x what Weigle was doing lost any competitive advantage.

How about you tells us exactly what kinematic feature that is achieved on a current short link multi link layout that cannot be achieved with horst / four bar and how it has an advantage?

It's not exactly surprising that there are people on TGR who fall for marketing.

[simple]

If I fell for marketing I would be on a plus sized wheelset ebike

[El Chupacabra]

The winning side was clear and toast had us on a nice linear path. Throw a couple shirk tokens in the shock and shit ramped up fast. That’s a no bar post too. Went for a ride on my multilink which I enjoy, played with dogs, had a glass of wine and made elk meatball pasta, and now enjoying a bookers in the hot tub. Not a single bar... my leverage curve is now proving regressive.

You have too much air trapped in your lowers and need to burp.

[rideit]

Isn’t that actually a fart?

[J. Barron DeJong]

And would any of those brands... be considered current industry leaders? Are any of them building the "hot, gotta-have" bikes?

I mean, the last two Pinkbike ‘Bike of the Year’ bikes were the Norco Optic and Specialized Stumpjumper EVO, so by one metric, yes?

I’d say the biggest advantage short links has is that the Instant Center can be made to move around more as the suspension moves through the range of travel than it can with Horst Link, so it does allow for some slightly different suspension kinematics when approaching full compression.

In practice, this is typically used to reduce anti-squat late in the travel where high anti-squat isn’t needed - since you’re not worried about pedaling efficiency if you’re hitting something hard enough to be near full compression. The benefit of reduced anti-squat is lower chain growth, so less pedal kickback.

[toast2266]

I

In practice, this is typically used to reduce anti-squat late in the travel where high anti-squat isn’t needed - since you’re not worried about pedaling efficiency if you’re hitting something hard enough to be near full compression. The benefit of reduced anti-squat is lower chain growth, so less pedal kickback.

Yup, that's pretty much it. And that mattered way more with multiple front chainrings. Kickback in the granny ring was a bitch on some bikes.

And in fairness to Weagle, he did a really good job of figuring all that stuff out in the early / mid 2000's. There's a reason he made such a name for himself. But like shirk said, once 1x arrived, the actual benefits of weagle's designs dropped off pretty quick. I remember talking to one of the engineers for a company that used a weagle design in 2014-ish and he was kind of bitching about how weagle was hung up on trying to spec multi ring drivetrains because he recognized that the benefits just weren't there with a 1x setup.

But once the industry realized that 1x drivetrains were here to stay, suspensions designs became a lot more homogeneous.

And like Andeh said, once the industry realized that it's really hard to tune a shock around a suspension design that has a bunch of weird curves and inflections in the leverage ratio, suspension designs became even more homogeneous. And that's where we are today.

Also, credit where credit is due, I'm pretty sure Kidwoo and Lee Lau were saying pretty much all of this on this forum like 10 years ago.

[carlh]

I was fully on board the dual link train until my current bike. New suspensions are pretty good across the board with some feel differences and exceptions. Hopefully we are done with regressive leverage ratios as well, moving to the cascade link on my sentinel made a huge difference in support and pedaling. As a tall guy I would prefer a touch more anti squat but it is pretty good right now. Choose a bike in the category you want with geometry you like and it will likely work well unlike 10 years ago when both kinematics and geometry sucked

[XXX-er]

I've stayed out of the bar since covid

[Dantheman]

with the exception of GG's cult following-I don't "get it"

Early adopters of pairing steep STAs to long/low/slack, Made in USA carbon at reasonable prices, customizeable factory builds, and fun self-deprecating marketing that doesn't take itself too seriously?

[jono]

Schralphmachio and I had the nerdy version of the kinematics discussion quite a few years ago on here. The only thing I haven't seen covered in the 2021 version is that chain line (from the side, not the top) relative to IC location has a distinct impact on pedaling aside from kinematic anti-squat. Keeping the chain pointed at the IC (or close) is good and that's half of the reason that 1x changed everything.

If anything, toast is perhaps too generous to Weagle: he designed around 2x/3x and didn't adjust very quickly to 1x. Probably in part because putting the IC where it needs to be and holding it fairly still is harder structurally with the DW-link. We don't talk forces in kinematics much, but when pivots get very close together the forces usually start to spike. DW-link suffers there when optimized for 1x drivetrains. Horst Links are easier to get right that way.

But to pile on: pedaling has been figured out. Pedal kickback and anti-rise are the last compromises.

[toast2266]

But to pile on: pedaling has been figured out. Pedal kickback and anti-rise are the last compromises.

I think anti-rise is still viable as a personal preference variable. I've owned bikes with a lot of anti-rise. I've owned bikes with very little anti-rise. I can see the benefits of both, and they're both good (and bad) in certain situations. I'm not sure there's a generally applicable correct answer to that question.

[snowday]

Anyone have problems with an I9 1/1 rear hub?

7th ride on a WA1 wheelset last night and had a couple occasional misshifts/grinding but its x01 so I figures par for the course. About a mile later rear hub loses all engagement. Almost 3 mile walk of shame back to the car. Wheel coasts fine but no more I9 buzz.

I need to take a look inside the hub this afternoon and I9 said send some pics but wtf.....

Hopefully more of a rant but any clue what happened after such little use?

[HAB]

Anyone have problems with an I9 1/1 rear hub?

7th ride on a WA1 wheelset last night and had a couple occasional misshifts/grinding but its x01 so I figures par for the course. About a mile later rear hub loses all engagement. Almost 3 mile walk of shame back to the car. Wheel coasts fine but no more I9 buzz.

I need to take a look inside the hub this afternoon and I9 said send some pics but wtf.....

Hopefully more of a rant but any clue what happened after such little use?

A buddy of mine grenaded a bunch of the pawls in his 1/1 in fairly short order. I9 sent him replacements, and I think said something about a bad batch that had something wrong with the heat treatment.

[VTskibum]

So while I wait for my (likely vaporware) LLS geo Spec Fuse HT to arrive, what internal width rim is appropriate for 29x2.6? Is 30mm enough? Never have run anything wider than a 2.4, most of that even on pretty standard width XC/trail rims, though been on 30 internal on my Stumpy w/ 2.3 trail tires which work great.

I've read lots claims that 30 is fine and others claiming anything under 35 you're gonna roll a 2.6 off the rim?! I'm not that rad, but do ride a lot.

[toast2266]

So while I wait for my (likely vaporware) LLS geo Spec Fuse HT to arrive, what internal width rim is appropriate for 29x2.6? Is 30mm enough? Never have run anything wider than a 2.4, most of that even on pretty standard width XC/trail rims, though been on 30 internal on my Stumpy w/ 2.3 trail tires which work great.

I've read lots claims that 30 is fine and others claiming anything under 35 you're gonna roll a 2.6 off the rim?! I'm not that rad, but do ride a lot.

30mm (internal width) is fine. A bit wider is a little better, but not so much that it's worth spending money on something wider.

Personally I think 30 is the sweet spot. If you go to a 35, it works better with a 2.6, but it doesn't really work at all with a 2.3, and it's pretty much too wide for a 2.4. 30mm is the width that works well with pretty much any normal (non plus size) tire. Not to mention wider rims are heavier.

[Conundrum]

Anyone have problems with an I9 1/1 rear hub?

7th ride on a WA1 wheelset last night and had a couple occasional misshifts/grinding but its x01 so I figures par for the course. About a mile later rear hub loses all engagement. Almost 3 mile walk of shame back to the car. Wheel coasts fine but no more I9 buzz.

I need to take a look inside the hub this afternoon and I9 said send some pics but wtf.....

Hopefully more of a rant but any clue what happened after such little use?

I blew up a rear I9 hub about five years ago. Called them and they sent new pawls which fixed it.

[Dee Hubbs]

Isn’t that actually a fart?

The air comes out the top, not the bottom? So a burp?

[rideit]

Maybe a burp that tastes like a fart?

[cydwhit]

Anyone have problems with an I9 1/1 rear hub?

7th ride on a WA1 wheelset last night and had a couple occasional misshifts/grinding but its x01 so I figures par for the course. About a mile later rear hub loses all engagement. Almost 3 mile walk of shame back to the car. Wheel coasts fine but no more I9 buzz.

I need to take a look inside the hub this afternoon and I9 said send some pics but wtf.....

Hopefully more of a rant but any clue what happened after such little use?

In my experience both I9 and WAO have been really responsive, I bet they'll have you sorted fast. I do remember, when I bought my WAO's with 101 hubs last year, WAO emailed me later and told me to check my serial numbers because some of the hubs they'd built into wheels had come with bad pawls, and they wanted to swap em. Mind didn't have the bad pawls, but this sure sounds like a pawl issue.

[Beaver]

A friend has a KS Lev eTen i that spooged oil into his frame. He asked if I could fix it, so I said I'd look into it. Since it spewed all it's oil I think it will need more than a basic seal refresh. I found a bunch of videos showing basic maintenance seal replacements but none showing how to repair the shock cartridge. Is it one of those don't even attempt type things? If so, where would you send one for rebuild?

[VTskibum]

30mm (internal width) is fine. A bit wider is a little better, but not so much that it's worth spending money on something wider.

Personally I think 30 is the sweet spot. If you go to a 35, it works better with a 2.6, but it doesn't really work at all with a 2.3, and it's pretty much too wide for a 2.4. 30mm is the width that works well with pretty much any normal (non plus size) tire. Not to mention wider rims are heavier.

Thx toast! Will stick w 30 internal and decide before committing to something too wide. Likely would be running 2.3s now and then, though also considered just picking up a truly XC wheel set (Crest/Arch) when the need arises to go real light. Trying to get my fleet back to more current standards. Have bikes w Boost, 100/142 TA, and some 100/135 QR still.


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