Ask the experts

[Roxtar]

okay experts, i just discovered iCan cycling from the gravel thread, and they seem to have INSANELY good deals on FS carbon fiber bikes. like an enduro bike with 150mm of travel, X01 group, carbon wheels for $4.5k. what gives?? why aren't these bikes more popular? seems like an insanely good deal - i'm just afraid that if i have to ask, i already know the answer...

Easy, outdated technology.
They're horst-links in a world of multiple link frames.

Kinda like pre-2021 Specialized

[El Chupacabra]

No need for that, just a dissecting needle or some other skinny thing to displace the fluid.

Got it. Had to google what a dissecting needle was...

[rideit]

okay experts, i just discovered iCan cycling from the gravel thread, and they seem to have INSANELY good deals on FS carbon fiber bikes. like an enduro bike with 150mm of travel, X01 group, carbon wheels for $4.5k. what gives?? why aren't these bikes more popular? seems like an insanely good deal - i'm just afraid that if i have to ask, i already know the answer...

Just shooting from the hip here without looking at geo specs, but the fact that that bike comes stock with a 90mm stem should tell you a few things.

[tgapp]

Just shooting from the hip here without looking at geo specs, but the fact that that bike comes stock with a 90mm stem should tell you a few things.

okay but pretend yer not an expert: what does that tell you? i assume it's way too long of a stem?

Easy, outdated technology.
They're horst-links in a world of multiple link frames.

Kinda like pre-2021 Specialized

how bad are horst-link frames? especially if it took specialized until 2021 to catch on...

[Roxtar]

how bad are horst-link frames? especially if it took specialized until 2021 to catch on...

Horst-links were awesome 25 years ago, less awesome 15 years ago, unheard of (other than Spec) for the last 8 or so.
Specialized didn't "catch on" they just refused to part with a designed they paid to license. That's why they always had these weird rear shock systems in a futile attempt to limit pedal bob.

[Roxtar]

Buy a 2-3 year old Ibis, Pivot, Santa Cruz, Evil,...
Far better off.

[tgapp]

Buy a 2-3 year old Ibis, Pivot, Santa Cruz, Evil,...
Far better off.

oh yeah, I've got an evil following that I love, just curious why those bikes were so fucking cheap. Makes sense, thanks for the answer

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

[Andeh]

Horst-links were awesome 25 years ago, less awesome 15 years ago, unheard of (other than Spec) for the last 8 or so.
Specialized didn't "catch on" they just refused to part with a designed they paid to license. That's why they always had these weird rear shock systems in a futile attempt to limit pedal bob.

What? There's a ton brands using 4-bar aka Horst Link suspensions now, many of which are quite good. That said, it's all in the details: you can have one that pedals and descends like dogshit, and another one that's better than VPP.

[simple]

What is a Horst? VPP?

We only know high pivot and 63 degree HTA these days.

[rideit]

Thank god ‘Instant Center Tracking’ is no longer discussed at length.

[dannynoonan]

okay experts, i just discovered iCan cycling from the gravel thread, and they seem to have INSANELY good deals on FS carbon fiber bikes. like an enduro bike with 150mm of travel, X01 group, carbon wheels for $4.5k. what gives?? why aren't these bikes more popular? seems like an insanely good deal - i'm just afraid that if i have to ask, i already know the answer...

What's been said, sorta, but mostly, those are straight outta Shenzhen bikes that are a great big mashup of either IP theft or "open mold" designs, fell-off-a-truck, zero marketing or R&D expense, and DTC business model with no accountability. Those things can combine to really knock the cost of a bike down. There is literally nothing wrong with that product, it's what you get with any number of the 3rd tier and DTC brands, but with this seller you'd prolly be buying at your own risk. See also, Alibaba.

[El Chupacabra]

Thank god ‘Instant Center Tracking’ is no longer discussed at length.

Tony Ellsworth would like a word.

[Conundrum]

Four bar is dead apparently. Might be able to get a Spur quickly now.

[dannynoonan]

Thank god ‘Instant Center Tracking’ is no longer discussed at length.

I do believe that one has expired as well, mercifully. That dude basically saw that there was a patent on "green" and went and got a patent on "medium green".

[rideit]

Shit, now I gotta sell the Altitude, it’s only the best (enduro) bike I have ever ridden.

[HAB]

Horst-links were awesome 25 years ago, less awesome 15 years ago, unheard of (other than Spec) for the last 8 or so.
Specialized didn't "catch on" they just refused to part with a designed they paid to license. That's why they always had these weird rear shock systems in a futile attempt to limit pedal bob.

What on earth? There are still a ton of excellent horst link bikes out there.

Also, looking at them as a monolith is dumb. A lot of 2010s Specialized bikes pedaled pretty poorly, but that was all down to the fact that they had really low main pivots, and therefore not much anti-squat. But that's just how Specialized chose to do things, nothing inherent to the design.

[toast2266]

Horst-links were awesome 25 years ago, less awesome 15 years ago, unheard of (other than Spec) for the last 8 or so.
Specialized didn't "catch on" they just refused to part with a designed they paid to license. That's why they always had these weird rear shock systems in a futile attempt to limit pedal bob.

I can't tell if you're joking...

The linkage design has nothing to do with why those ican bikes are cheap. They're cheap because they're open mold Chinese frames that aren't backed by any marketing, dependable QC, or reliable warranty.

The geo is a bit dated, but really you just don't know what you're getting. The frame might be fine, or it might catastrophically fail. They still don't look to be cheap enough to be worth buying just for the parts.

[Roxtar]

I can't tell if you're joking...

Not necessarily joking but definitely tongue-in-cheek.
Horst links were the best things running until VPP brought in the multi-link bikes. I had the last TRUE horst-link, built by Horst Leitner, the AMP Research B5. It was a great bike for the times.
It's still a good downhill design but can't compare to a multi-link for all around use.

[toast2266]

It's still a good downhill design but can't compare to a multi-link for all around use.

I guess someone's gonna have to break the news to Specialized, Norco, Scott, YT, Guerrilla Gravity, Transition, Cannondale, NS bikes, Raaw, Privateer, Whyte, Knolly, and a whole bunch of others that their bikes aren't good for all around use.

But seriously. Most modern horst link bikes have almost identical kinematics to modern short link bikes. And if they differ, it's by choice, not by any inherent limitation of the suspension design. These days, any notion that any given suspension design rides a given way is almost entirely bullshit. You can make a horst link bike that prioritizes pedaling efficiency, and you can make a DW link bike that pedals like utter shit. And the patents for almost all of those designs have either expired or been invalidated. If there was a clearly superior design, everyone would be using it. (And arguably the horst link is the clearly superior design, since most companies use it and only a handful of companies are using multi link designs).

[jackstraw]

^I'm glad I suck because I can barely tell the difference between all the bikes I've ridden over the past 3-4yrs. The suspension has been awesome on every single one!

[toast2266]

^I'm glad I suck because I can barely tell the difference between all the bikes I've ridden over the past 3-4yrs. The suspension has been awesome on every single one!

Honestly, the suspension designs on a lot of bikes have become pretty similar in recent years. There's a lot more agreement in the industry on what kind of kinematics work well, so most companies have adopted similar curves (even if the pivot locations make the bikes look fairly different). There are certainly exceptions to that, but compared to 10 years ago, most companies are doing pretty similar things with their suspension designs.

Realistically, a lot of the difference in suspension you'll feel these days has more to do with the shock tune than the suspension layout.

[HAB]

Honestly, the suspension designs on a lot of bikes have become pretty similar in recent years. There's a lot more agreement in the industry on what kind of kinematics work well, so most companies have adopted similar curves (even if the pivot locations make the bikes look fairly different). There are certainly exceptions to that, but compared to 10 years ago, most companies are doing pretty similar things with their suspension designs.

Realistically, a lot of the difference in suspension you'll feel these days has more to do with the shock tune than the suspension layout.

Yup. There's still some variation in kinematics, for sure, but the range of stuff that most modern bikes fall into has gotten WAY smaller.

And your earlier point about how it's almost entirely pointless to make generalizations about how a given layout works is right on too. Sure, there are a few specific exceptions (e.g. you can't really make a true single pivot very progressive, in a layout that makes any sense, without resorting to a shock linkage) but as soon as you're into whatever sort of four bar bike (and that includes VPP, DW link etc.) you can make them all do the same stuff, for the most part.

[toast2266]

Sure, there are a few specific exceptions (e.g. you can't really make a true single pivot very progressive, in a layout that makes any sense, without resorting to a shock linkage) but as soon as you're into whatever sort of four bar bike (and that includes VPP, DW link etc.) you can make them all do the same stuff, for the most part.

I think the problem here is obvious: companies aren't using enough bars. That's why I'm going all in on Felt bikes. 6 bar linkage is clearly 2 better than every shitty 4 bar linkage out there.

[HAB]

I think the problem here is obvious: companies aren't using enough bars. That's why I'm going all in on Felt bikes. 6 bar linkage is clearly 2 better than every shitty 4 bar linkage out there.

Regrettably, Felt appears to have gotten out of the mountain bike business. Can I interest you in the Polygon e-bike though?


Dibs on the Atherton, for me.

[toast2266]

Regrettably, Felt appears to have gotten out of the mountain bike business. Can I interest you in the Polygon e-bike though?


Dibs on the Atherton, for me.

This is the second worst news I've heard all day. (The worst news being that the spur I ordered is only going to be good on the downhills).