Ask the experts

[grskier]

I think one engineer has already spoken. Second chiming in here:

I don’t work with composites, but it seems to me that the area your looking at is one where you’d have a hard time ensuring consistent high quality results from the layup. It’s a small area, tight radius, a hole right in the middle. So while it looks like there’s more material than you need to meet the strength requirements, you don’t know what you’ll actually find inside: maybe a lot of resin, maybe fibers not oriented ideally, maybe voids.

I’m with Toast. I can’t imagine liking a shock so much to be willing to risk doing something like that.

This. It's also likely one of the areas that has the least amount of factor of safety designed around it because of everything DeJong stated

[sethschmautz]

Thanks all. I'm back off the ledge.

I didn't have the drivetrain installed until last night so I'll try the shock backwards first and see if it rubs on my huge calves. :-)

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[jono]

Fourth it.


Also, I rode a demo set of the Zipp Moto wheels for a few weeks when they first launched. Here is my math/physics-free anecdotal review.
They had different tires than I usually run (Conti vs Maxxis). I never noticed anything specifically related to rim flex when leaning the bike on smooth-ish turns (but this could be related to unfamiliar tires).
What was very noticeable was the way the wheel tracked through off camber roots/rocks. Noticeably less deflection and better traction. They held my preferred line with less effort and finesse compared to the Enve M7 I was riding at that time.
They didn’t feel super quick trying to get on the gas and accelerate out of corners if I did make a mistake or used too much brake. But as I got used to them, I found myself braking less into turns and could carry more speed through chunky turns because they tracked well and inspired confidence.
I’ve found that the thermoplastic Revel RW30 fit somewhere between the Zips and Enves in terms of ride quality/deflection/smoothness and impacts.

Thanks for that. When you say noticeably less deflection, what do you mean by that? Like the bike stayed on line through bumps better, or ?

[climberevan]

Thanks for that. When you say noticeably less deflection, what do you mean by that? Like the bike stayed on line through bumps better, or ?

Different tires and likely different pressure makes any comparison completely moot. Let's try not to lose all reason here-- we're not audiophiles buying $3300 Ethernet cables, after all.

[grskier]

I'm going to be starting this next season on flats (as recommended by my ortho after ACL reconstruction)... RIP my shins.

I finished last year on a softer flat (five ten sleuth) that was great for riding with the kids, but I could feel it when I was actually pushing the bike around a little.
What is -
sticky rubber
stiff soled
similarly basic.

I get along with any closure systems generally

[joetron]

Thanks for that. When you say noticeably less deflection, what do you mean by that? Like the bike stayed on line through bumps better, or ?

Yep, sorry, that was a bit unclear. But yeah, less deflection of the wheel/bike/rider off the chosen line.
On pieces of trail where I was used to my bike bouncing around a bit and planning for that (starting in a high line and ready to exit a little lower) the Zipps tended to track better and keep me in the high line.


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[Phall]

Five ten impact pros are probably your stiffest option. I’ve used the freeriders(basic ones) for DH a few times and they were not stiff enough. My lady rides freerider pros and flexing them seems like they would be ok, and are common among friends who are flat pedal shredders. The Ride Concept shoes seem pretty solid from some reviews I’ve read.


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[joetron]

Different tires and likely different pressure makes any comparison completely moot. Let's try not to lose all reason here-- we're not audiophiles buying $3300 Ethernet cables, after all.

I’ve ridden enough different shit over the years to have a decent grasp of what I was feeling.


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[Andeh]

I'm going to be starting this next season on flats (as recommended by my ortho after ACL reconstruction)... RIP my shins.

I finished last year on a softer flat (five ten sleuth) that was great for riding with the kids, but I could feel it when I was actually pushing the bike around a little.
What is -
sticky rubber
stiff soled
similarly basic.

I get along with any closure systems generally

Impact Pro
Specialized 2FO DH

I've had various Freeriders (currently own a pair of Freerider Pro Prime Blues for the pumptrack), and don't like them for trail riding. The comparatively softer sole on the FRP (vs Impact Pros I normally ride) causes foot pain descending for me. I tried the 2FO Roost last year and felt the rubber was great, but I sized them wrong (wear a 9.5, got their 9.3 equivalent instead of 9.6... my bad). I'm interested in trying their DH version when I kill my 2 pairs of Impact Pros.

[jono]

I’ve ridden enough different shit over the years to have a decent grasp of what I was feeling.

I'm with you on that, within some margin of error. There's also the issue of spokes (number, angle and tension), which if you're like me is not nearly as easy to note and account for as tires. But as you said, it's anecdotal/one data point. Useful for what it is, though. Thanks for clarifying.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I’ve ridden enough different shit over the years to have a decent grasp of what I was feeling.


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I’m not going to claim you’re wrong here, but I will say that in general humans really suck at recognizing this type of thing accurately and having a different tire than normal adds a whole new complication.

Josh Portner told a story on the Marginal Gains podcast about how the U.S. Postal team were given a new Zipp wheel to ride right before a big race (the Tour maybe?) and when the team took them for a test spin the they came back and complained the wheels were too flexy. There was no time to have any parts redesigned and remanufactured, but there were some of the same standard axles already at the anodizing facility, so Zipp had those ones anodized red instead of the standard color. Rushed the axles to the Postal team and told them they were a new design that would make the wheels stiffer and handle better. Team comes back from the test ride and they all agree that it’s big improvement and they’re very happy with the wheels.

[Terrapin Ben]

I really like the Shimano GR7. They are comfortable, fit my wide foot, have good traction on and off the pedal, and don't break the bank. I liked the impact Pros, but they are getting hard to find and wear out a little too quickly for the price point.

I haven't really found a flat pedal shoe that is as still as clipless shoe, however. That being said, both the Impact Pro and GR7 are stiffer than most flat pedal shoes.

[toast2266]

I’m not going to claim you’re wrong here, but I will say that in general humans really suck at recognizing this type of thing accurately and having a different tire than normal adds a whole new complication.

Josh Portner told a story on the Marginal Gains podcast about how the U.S. Postal team were given a new Zipp wheel to ride right before a big race (the Tour maybe?) and when the team took them for a test spin the they came back and complained the wheels were too flexy. There was no time to have any parts redesigned and remanufactured, but there were some of the same standard axles already at the anodizing facility, so Zipp had those ones anodized red instead of the standard color. Rushed the axles to the Postal team and told them they were a new design that would make the wheels stiffer and handle better. Team comes back from the test ride and they all agree that it’s big improvement and they’re very happy with the wheels.

Yeah, but those are roadies.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Yeah, but those are roadies.

True. True. And the conditions of the road itself change quite a bit day-to-day, as opposed to the trails we ride

But really, I’m not trying to pile on. Maybe take a trust but verify approach - if you really think there’s something there (and there may well be!) then try to do an A/B comparison of the two wheels back-to-back with everything else the same.

[joetron]

JFC, this place. Lol.
A rep gave me some wheels to ride for feedback with some tires (that he also sells). I put them on my bike and rode them on super familiar trails that I used for my own personal testing purposes with suspension, tires, etc. I had ridden the same tires in the past, so they weren’t completely foreign.
Somebody asked if anyone had ridden those wheels, and apparently I’m the only person that has, so I answered…with an acknowledged anecdote and the tire caveat.
Maybe if I underbiked with a 26t ring and a snazzy USWE pack, Evan would take me seriously.
I clearly need more spreadsheets and some lap timers.



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[grskier]

I clearly need more spreadsheets and some lap timers.
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Anyone have recommendations on lap timers? I'm already a pro at spreadsheets.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Anyone have recommendations on lap timers? I'm already a pro at spreadsheets.

You need to do A/B comparisons using the ‘Chung Method’.

(Chung Method is a crazy genius way of using the measurable data in a way that eliminates a lot of the requirements to tightly control everything you’re doing, and the environment you’re doing it in, when trying to determine differences in things like rolling resistance between two tires, or aero drag between two body positions. Really fascinating from a math/data analysis perspective.)

[rideit]

Depends. Do your lap times have flex built into them?

[Dee Hubbs]

Anyone have recommendations on lap timers? I'm already a pro at spreadsheets.

Just got a Keyword notification from TGR “spreadsheets”.

[jono]

Avatar checks out.

No disrespect to the roadies, but the key difference is that they ride together, chatting it up and reinforcing each other's opinions. I'm gonna go ahead and trust that joetron is just a little more of a scientific thinker than a pack of tweens selected for their abilities in spandex. At least he knows how to properly qualify his statements.

[HAB]

I'm going to be starting this next season on flats (as recommended by my ortho after ACL reconstruction)... RIP my shins.

I finished last year on a softer flat (five ten sleuth) that was great for riding with the kids, but I could feel it when I was actually pushing the bike around a little.
What is -
sticky rubber
stiff soled
similarly basic.

I get along with any closure systems generally

Giro Latch, Five Ten Freerider Pro, and Ride Concepts Hellion Elite could all fit the bill depending on fit and how much stiffer you want to go.

The RC is the stiffest, and a narrow-ish fit. They run kinda long too, so if you have a narrow foot they could work well a half size down.

The Giro and 5.10 are pretty similar in terms of stickiness and stiffness, but the Giro is significantly wider. Both are a little stickier than the RC.

If you want REALLY sticky and can find a pair, the Freerider Contact is significantly stickier than any of the above. Kinda wide-ish.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Avatar checks out.

No disrespect to the roadies, but the key difference is that they ride together, chatting it up and reinforcing each other's opinions. I'm gonna go ahead and trust that joetron is just a little more of a scientific thinker than a pack of tweens selected for their abilities in spandex. At least he knows how to properly qualify his statements.

I’m pretty sure this is not a roadie/mountain thing, but more of a ‘human race in general’ thing. We’re just not good at noticing subtleties like this, and are very open to persuasion; even scientific minded people. Placebos can work, even when people know it’s a placebo! We’re all very defective.

[jono]

I’m pretty sure this is not a roadie/mountain thing, but more of a ‘human race in general’ thing. We’re just not good at noticing subtleties like this, and are very open to persuasion; even scientific minded people. Placebos can work, even when people know it’s a placebo! We’re all very defective.

Of course. And for precision without noise I do like a nice computer model. Still and all, the rubber eventually meets the trail. And whereas US Postal riders were very good at agreeing with one particular (demonstrably delusional) human, there are a number of people here who do a lot of back to back comparisons. Perception is a skill you can improve, like most. I'd like a bigger sample, but joetron's is a good start.

[climberevan]

Maybe if I underbiked with a 26t ring and a snazzy USWE pack, Evan would take me seriously.
I clearly need more spreadsheets and some lap timers.

You'd be a good audiophile.

I'm not staying this to be a dick, honestly. I would totally take your impressions of a rim seriously if you controlled the other, vastly more impactful variables in the equation (tire type and pressure). I'll even give a pass on the spoke number and tension because I think that probably has a minimal impact.

Do people also think that meaningful comparisons of suspension can be made without using the same wheels and tires, to suggest another example?

[jackstraw]

...anodized red instead of the standard color.

Of course the Red ones were better. We all know that! Roadies should just check in here more often