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Thread: Ask the experts

  1. #6751
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    3mm dish offset is closer to 3/4 - full turn of each spoke
    my sx trail has an offset rear end and i swap with my dj occasionally as its easier to swap wheels and re-dish than it is to swap tires when i take the dj on looser dirt slope or flow trails
    ive also ridden the sx trail with normal dishing and its not noticeable outside of some rubbing on chainstay under hard cornering

  2. #6752
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    I've never even heard the term 'dishing' before. Thanks for the knowledge...again.

    https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...hing-centering

  3. #6753
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    Quote Originally Posted by forty View Post
    3mm dish offset is closer to 3/4 - full turn of each spoke
    my sx trail has an offset rear end and i swap with my dj occasionally as its easier to swap wheels and re-dish than it is to swap tires when i take the dj on looser dirt slope or flow trails
    ive also ridden the sx trail with normal dishing and its not noticeable outside of some rubbing on chainstay under hard cornering
    Yes. But just like adding spices to a dish, you shouldn’t do it all at once, IMO. (Retrue/check roundness between 1/4 turns). It’s not a race.
    Forum Cross Pollinator, gratuitously strident

  4. #6754
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post
    That's what I read somewhere online (stack as opposed to cancel out) but I have a hard time visualizing it so I'll wait til the bike is built and figure it out at that point. Spoke lengths came from the calculator and were as optimum as I could get, ie 1 mm difference between drive and non drive. Could probably have gone with the same length but I figured why bother calculating things if I'm going to ignore the result. I'll probably re-dish so the wheel is visually centered without actually bothering to measure with a wheel dish though, there's enough flex and squish in the system that I don't think it will matter.
    A sketch to help you visualize:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Left is a normal symmetrical build. Right shows how the hub itself is offset to the right of the frame centerline, and the spoke holes are offset to the left of the rim. Both those changes work to make the spoke angle more symmetrical between sides. (Hub is green, spokes purple, rim red. On the right image the greyed lines are the original geometry as shown in the left.)

  5. #6755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian View Post
    As crazy as it sounds it might make a difference when picking lines through crazy chunder/rock gardens? Like in a way even riding dead straight the rear wheel might hit something that the front wheel missed?

    That's probably overthinking it.....
    You're definitely overthinking this.

    It will make zero perceptible difference in how the bike rides. It will probably cause a 2.5" tire to rub on the chainstay in hard corners. Re-dishing is a quick and easy job and anyone with a very basic understanding of how to true a wheel should be able to bang it out in 15 minutes.

  6. #6756
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    nobody ever over thinks things on TGR

    An improperly dished wheel will let the tire hit the frame, dish allows the ever growing rear cluster to fit in the frame
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  7. #6757
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    A sketch to help you visualize:
    Damn, nice explanation, thank you. I'll report back when I'm done building the beast. Last re-dish for a couple mm was about 1/2 turn, 3/4 turn to full turn for 3 mm sounds about right.
    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

  8. #6758
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post
    Damn, nice explanation, thank you. I'll report back when I'm done building the beast. Last re-dish for a couple mm was about 1/2 turn, 3/4 turn to full turn for 3 mm sounds about right.
    No problem. Just sitting here in front of my computer listening to a boring Teams meeting. Much more interesting to consider bikes.

  9. #6759
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    I tried the 1/4 turn dishing method. Seems to have worked? At least looking at the bike from the rear the center of the tire tread seems to line up with the frame centerline. Good enough for me.

  10. #6760
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian View Post
    I tried the 1/4 turn dishing method. Seems to have worked? At least looking at the bike from the rear the center of the tire tread seems to line up with the frame centerline. Good enough for me.
    Nice! Now letís hope that wheel doesnít taco on the first ride, eh?

  11. #6761
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    Quoting myself here since this thread is on a roll and my nitpicky shock hardware question got buried by all this dishing stuff:

    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post
    Shock hardware question for the collective. Bought a Gnarvana frame recently, it came with a Cane Creek Kistuma air shock. The hardware is from Cane Creek and the correct size (M8x20 front, M8x35 rear). Yesterday while re-mounting the shock I noticed there's quite a bit of resistance to rotation around the eyelets at both ends when torqued to spec (10 Nm on the torque wrench). The shock moves freely until I about 9ish Nm but the resistance becomes very noticeable above that, so much so that with 10 Nm torque on the front I can let go of the back of the shock and it just floats there instead of dropping down to the frame under its own weight. This seems weird considering that the first time I unbolted the rear half of the shock I have on my Occam it instantly rotated down onto the frame and dinged it (doh!).
    I tried removing some of the spacers to see if they were causing the issue but no, there's resistance even with the sleeve by itself.

    I was thinking of dropping the torque to 8 Nm to get free rotation and using blue loctite to basically bring things back to the recommended 10. Am I overthinking this? Resistance by hand might not mean shit when my 180 lbs are bouncing about but it still feels off, especially with the CaneCreek hardware seeming a bit janky compared to the Fox stuff I've used (the M8x35 stuff comes with 8 different spacers).
    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

  12. #6762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post
    Quoting myself here since this thread is on a roll and my nitpicky shock hardware question got buried by all this dishing stuff:
    Sounds to me like the CC hardware is too tight. How difficult is it to push the hardware shaft through the eyelet bushing? I give my EXT hardware many ugga-duggas and it rotates fine. My suggestion would be getting some Fox hardware and replacing the CC stuff. I know Fox makes 3 different sizes of the brown DU inserts, so you can swap those for tolerance on the shaft.

  13. #6763
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andeh View Post
    Sounds to me like the CC hardware is too tight. How difficult is it to push the hardware shaft through the eyelet bushing? I give my EXT hardware many ugga-duggas and it rotates fine. My suggestion would be getting some Fox hardware and replacing the CC stuff. I know Fox makes 3 different sizes of the brown DU inserts, so you can swap those for tolerance on the shaft.
    The sleeve (I assume that's what you mean by the shaft, the metal tube that goes through the bushing mounted inside the eyelet of the shock) does not move through the bushing at all. Can't rotate it by hand, can't slide it through by hand, has to be installed with a press. I agree that it seems too tight compared to the Fox stuff. The sleeve drops into the frame/linkage nice and tight at first and rotates freely. Once I torque the bolt down enough the sleeve gets pinched on each side against the frame/linkage and it stops rotating. That's when the resistance goes way up, I assume from the bushing being mega tight against the sleeve. Maybe it will loosen in time but the frame/shock aren't new so if it's getting better it's doing it very slowly.
    Form what I understand CC has their own proprietary hardware since their eyelets are bigger than Fox so I think I'm stuck using their stuff.

    Edit: nwm, they used to run 14.7 mm eyelets to be a pain in the ass but apparently the Kitsuma is 15 mm and should fit the standard FOX stuff. Might give it a shot and see if it helps
    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

  14. #6764
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    DVO hardware also works, is usually cheaper than Fox hardware, and unlike Fox hardware doesn't require removing the eyelet bushing: https://dvosuspension.com/product/re...ting-hardware/

  15. #6765
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    DVO hardware also works, is usually cheaper than Fox hardware, and unlike Fox hardware doesn't require removing the eyelet bushing: https://dvosuspension.com/product/re...ting-hardware/
    Thanks, obviously they're out of stock for the sizes I need. I went with the FOX stuff, found it for $17 a pop, we'll see if it fixes the issue.
    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

  16. #6766
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Sweet, keep me posted. Hopefully Pinkbike's long-term review of the E13 Helix isn't too far away, either.
    Anyone with experience with the E13 Helix?
    Not many updates as too durability from some mentions in this thread a year ago.

    My GX on the Hei Hei is looking tired spring replacement planned.
    Drink to remember not to forget!
    Fourisight Wines

  17. #6767
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtrmjoe View Post
    Anyone with experience with the E13 Helix?
    Not many updates as too durability from some mentions in this thread a year ago.

    My GX on the Hei Hei is looking tired spring replacement planned.
    Subscribing. I have had good experience with the TRS+ 11 speed 9-46 cassettes but just got my first 12 did 9-50. Also curious to hear what others think.

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

  18. #6768
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    I'm wary of anyone who suggests purposefully fucking up the dish of a wheel. I'm sure this has been discussed in here previously, so hopefully we won't get to deep into the weeds on it this round.
    Since we've deteriorated to self-quoting, here goes. Because I LOVE that you lads felt compelled to pwn me on the analogy that I deleted a few minutes after typing because I realized it was dumb. The intent was to focus on how, something that works beautifully when everything is symmetrical and well balanced, will likely lose much of what makes it great once you throw off that balance. But I digress.
    I would like to touch back on how "easy" the simple changes are. Again, if you haven't built a wheel, you probably aren't thinking about spoke windup. So you probably didn't notice that your 1/4 turn on some spokes did a lot more than it did on others. And when the occasional 1/4 turn resulted in a dramatic popping sound, it was an indication that things were getting a little whackadoodle. Eventually that leads to broken spokes on the trail because you've got weirdly tensioned shit. And yea, when the spokes on top of the circle take a huge load (like the one I left in your mom), the spokes on the bottom of the circle unload. And when you have a bunch of WIND UP, they start twirling around and next thing you know you're out of true. Or with a carbon rim you're still true but you have horribly unbalanced spoke tension. Again leading to broken spokes on the trail.
    But hey, I'm not an engineer. But I do know one who's a smokin hot WC DH racer. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/frida-...-for-2022.html which has to count for something.
    Lots of Cream, Lots of Sugar

  19. #6769
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    Since we've deteriorated to self-quoting, here goes. Because I LOVE that you lads felt compelled to pwn me on the analogy that I deleted a few minutes after typing because I realized it was dumb. The intent was to focus on how, something that works beautifully when everything is symmetrical and well balanced, will likely lose much of what makes it great once you throw off that balance. But I digress.
    I would like to touch back on how "easy" the simple changes are. Again, if you haven't built a wheel, you probably aren't thinking about spoke windup. So you probably didn't notice that your 1/4 turn on some spokes did a lot more than it did on others. And when the occasional 1/4 turn resulted in a dramatic popping sound, it was an indication that things were getting a little whackadoodle. Eventually that leads to broken spokes on the trail because you've got weirdly tensioned shit. And yea, when the spokes on top of the circle take a huge load (like the one I left in your mom), the spokes on the bottom of the circle unload. And when you have a bunch of WIND UP, they start twirling around and next thing you know you're out of true. Or with a carbon rim you're still true but you have horribly unbalanced spoke tension. Again leading to broken spokes on the trail.
    But hey, I'm not an engineer. But I do know one who's a smokin hot WC DH racer. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/frida-...-for-2022.html which has to count for something.
    So what you're saying is check spoke tension pre and post re-dishing to make sure nothing horrible happened? Or burn asymmetric rear-triangles on a pyre? I'm unclear...
    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

  20. #6770
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    If you wound up some spokes in the dishing process, the wheel will go out of true on the first ride. True it (by tightening the non-drive side only) and you'll be right back to where you should've been if the spokes hadn't wound up.

  21. #6771
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    With how stiff and strong carbon rims are these days, it hardly matters.
    Forum Cross Pollinator, gratuitously strident

  22. #6772
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    With how stiff and strong carbon rims are these days, it hardly matters.
    This. In fact, I'm thinking about building a set of carbon rims without any spokes at all.


  23. #6773
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    All valid points
    Lots of Cream, Lots of Sugar

  24. #6774
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    deal with spoke wind up by over tightening and backing off,

    so if you are trying to do 1/4 go 1/2 turn and back off 1/4 turn for a net 1/4 turn
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  25. #6775
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian View Post
    I tried the 1/4 turn dishing method. Seems to have worked? At least looking at the bike from the rear the center of the tire tread seems to line up with the frame centerline. Good enough for me.
    Iím just catching up so perhaps this had been mentioned, but once you have the wheel done, put the rubber on it and pump it up. Then bounce it hard on the ground a bunch of times. Then grab the spokes and pull them together with your hands - squeeze them a bunch. Then bounce the wheel again.

    That actually does a good job of balancing tension a little. You might hear spokes pop. Now stick it back on the trueing stand. Retrue, making sure to always avoid windup by tensioning each spoke a little past then backing of 1/8-1/4 turn.

    Once true you should be good. Though some people repeat the process.

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