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  1. #1
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    Lively ski for NTN resort

    Asking for a friend (really. I dont tele).

    Dude is on NTN. Got Brahmas at the insistence of a sales guy. Doesnt like them. Wants a light, lively, snappy ski. I know NTNs can rip out of light skis. I told him to go DPS since theyll warranty NTN rip outs. Anyone got a better suggestion? Hell be skiing all resort days. Loveland, to be precise.

  2. #2
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    I find myself coming back to Black Diamond skis for tele. He should avoid the Helio series but the Route or Link series would work.

    I slammed east coast bumps all spring on the Link 90 and loved them. A

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackalps View Post
    Asking for a friend (really. I don’t tele).

    Dude is on NTN. Got Brahmas at the insistence of a sales guy. Doesn’t like them. Wants a light, lively, snappy ski. I know NTN’s can rip out of light skis. I told him to go DPS since they’ll warranty NTN rip outs. Anyone got a better suggestion? He’ll be skiing all resort days. Loveland, to be precise.
    Don't base the choice on tele vs alpine. Those manufacturers that won't warranty a tele mount are few and far between, and for some it's only for certain skis (eg. Black Diamond Helio series like Peruvian notes and I agree with his Link suggestion). Most manufacturers aren't really building telemark specific skis any more and even when they were it was often just an alpine ski with different graphics. Also NTN encompasses a lot of different bindings, some more prone to pullout than others. What doesn't he like about the Brahma?

    I have a couple pairs of skis to sell, neither of these are necessarily light and lively and sounds like fatter than what he wants, but both good skis. If he has interest we can talk $ but I would make you a fair deal.

    Black Diamound Route 105 175cm (1 mount for 22 Designs Outlaw).

    ON3P Kartel 108 181cm (3 mounts, 2 alpine, currently has metal Rottefella Freeride plate).

  4. #4
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    What 3PG said, especially the part about requiring more specific details. "light, lively, snappy" could simply mean a quicker edge to edge transition i.e. go narrower ...... I know, I know, 88 waist is "narrow" by TGR standards, but let's face it, a free-heel binding tends to extend that edge to edge transition just a scosh, some bindings more than others. Not so important if strictly for soft, fresh snow, of course.

  5. #5
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    his current skis are Blizzard Brahmas. He says he likes the shape and width, doesn't like how damp and heavy they are.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3PinGrin View Post
    Don't base the choice on tele vs alpine. Those manufacturers that won't warranty a tele mount are few and far between, and for some it's only for certain skis (eg. Black Diamond Helio series like Peruvian notes and I agree with his Link suggestion). Most manufacturers aren't really building telemark specific skis any more and even when they were it was often just an alpine ski with different graphics. Also NTN encompasses a lot of different bindings, some more prone to pullout than others. What doesn't he like about the Brahma?

    I have a couple pairs of skis to sell, neither of these are necessarily light and lively and sounds like fatter than what he wants, but both good skis. If he has interest we can talk $ but I would make you a fair deal.

    Black Diamound Route 105 175cm (1 mount for 22 Designs Outlaw).

    ON3P Kartel 108 181cm (3 mounts, 2 alpine, currently has metal Rottefella Freeride plate).


    I disagree about the tele mount warranty issue. I worked at a shop last year and a fair (and increasing) number of ski manufacturers won't warranty NTN pullouts. Faction won't warranty any NTN pullouts. Voile won't warranty any tele on any of their lighter skis. Black Crows denied our customers several warranty claims due to Outlaws ripping out of their skis. Several other manufacturers don't have a blanket denial, but will deny case by case claims if they know it was an NTN binding, especially the Outlaw. The shop I worked at did more tele than any other shops in the area, and we had so many issues with it, we started steering people to metal skis, especially Blizzards, and companies like DPS that expressly state they will warranty all tele issues.

    at any rate, he says he likes the flat tail and more traditional shape of the Brahma, but doesn't like how heavy and damp it is. I suggested a few skis and he nah'ed most of them due to having "too much rocker" tip and tail. He's an older dude that grew up skiing slalom on the east coast and then switched to tele when he moved to CO. the NTN is new to him, he apparently doesn't like it so far but has decided to stick with it anyway.

  7. #7
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    If he can get over the totally flat tail thing, Liberty Origin 90 or Head Kore 93.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackalps View Post
    his current skis are Blizzard Brahmas. He says he likes the shape and width, doesn't like how damp and heavy they are.
    Ive not skied the Brahmas but understand his issue with heavy skis for tele. I sold a pair of 85mm wide DPS as they were very heavy for tele.

    I really think he would like Black Diamond skis.

  9. #9
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    Bushwackers? Same dimensions, lighter-

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by half-fast View Post
    Bushwackers? Same dimensions, lighter-

    duh. dunno why I didn't think of that.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackalps View Post
    I disagree about the tele mount warranty issue. I worked at a shop last year and a fair (and increasing) number of ski manufacturers won't warranty NTN pullouts. Faction won't warranty any NTN pullouts. Voile won't warranty any tele on any of their lighter skis. Black Crows denied our customers several warranty claims due to Outlaws ripping out of their skis. Several other manufacturers don't have a blanket denial, but will deny case by case claims if they know it was an NTN binding, especially the Outlaw. The shop I worked at did more tele than any other shops in the area, and we had so many issues with it, we started steering people to metal skis, especially Blizzards, and companies like DPS that expressly state they will warranty all tele issues.

    at any rate, he says he likes the flat tail and more traditional shape of the Brahma, but doesn't like how heavy and damp it is. I suggested a few skis and he nah'ed most of them due to having "too much rocker" tip and tail. He's an older dude that grew up skiing slalom on the east coast and then switched to tele when he moved to CO. the NTN is new to him, he apparently doesn't like it so far but has decided to stick with it anyway.
    Ugh, I had a large response on my phone and got deleted when I edited, happens all the time for some reason. That's interesting blackalps and I definitely wasn't aware, so thanks for clarifying.

    Anyway, to summarize, I can't imagine issues with bindings like the Rottefella Freeride that uses 6 oversized screws spaced far apart and a metal mounting plate (plastic on the newer ones). BD definitely had issues with the 01 (maybe still even though they added two screw holes) which is a 75mm. It seems A/T tech bindings would often be just as prone to pullout (maybe that's an issue regarding warranty too?)

    Just seems really arbitrary to say "NTN" bindings like they are all designed the same regarding mounting patterns/systems because there are a lot of different approaches these days.
    Last edited by 3PinGrin; 10-08-2019 at 10:17 AM.

  12. #12
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    ^^^my Meidjos take 13 screws per ski!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3PinGrin View Post
    It seems A/T tech bindings would often be just as prone to pullout (maybe that's an issue regarding warranty too?)
    AT tech bindings have far far less stress placed on the toe mount than a tele binding.

    I haven't heard of tele pull outs while going uphill touring.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3PinGrin View Post
    Ugh, I had a large response on my phone and got deleted when I edited, happens all the time for some reason. That's interesting blackalps and I definitely wasn't aware, so thanks for clarifying.

    Anyway, to summarize, I can't imagine issues with bindings like the Rottefella Freeride that uses 6 oversized screws spaced far apart and a metal mounting plate (plastic on the newer ones). BD definitely had issues with the 01 (maybe still even though they added two screw holes) which is a 75mm. It seems A/T tech bindings would often be just as prone to pullout (maybe that's an issue regarding warranty too?)

    Just seems really arbitrary to say "NTN" bindings like they are all designed the same regarding mounting patterns/systems because there are a lot of different approaches these days.

    A/T doesn't place the binding under tension when you lift your heel like an NTN binding does. The whole concept of NTN bindings, especially Outlaws, is that it increases the tension/stress on the toe mount the farther you bend your knee. Some of them have replaceable springs so that you can increase the tension even more, if you like. A/T is just a free moving hinge. It doesn't matter how far you move your heel, you aren't changing the tension on the binding mount whatsoever unless you go so far that the toe of your boot smacks into the binding, in which case most of them will release (although some of them will just crush your boot *cough* fritschi).

    NTN bindings have different form factors, different mounting patterns, but they all share one feature: spring loaded, which increases tension on the binding mount the farther you bend your knee. I saw a lot of NTN's rip out. Bishops, 22designs, Rottafellas, all of them. I saw almost no A/T toes rip out. I saw pins break, arms break, a lot of heel towers breaking, brakes breaking, din settings mechanisms breaking, but almost zero bindings ripping out of the ski.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    AT tech bindings have far far less stress placed on the toe mount than a tele binding.

    I haven't heard of tele pull outs while going uphill touring.
    Yes, I undertstand toe forces uphill vs downhill. But since A/T tech bindings typically don't transfer force across a plate connecting the toe piece, I though that may be an issue (but no idea since I am brand new to A/T). I do know that in 40 years I have never ripped a tele binding from a ski primarily doing my own mounts. But I don't like uber light skis either.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3PinGrin View Post
    Yes, I undertstand toe forces uphill vs downhill. But since A/T tech bindings typically don't transfer force across a plate connecting the toe piece, I though that may be an issue (but no idea since I am brand new to A/T). I do know that in 40 years I have never ripped a tele binding from a ski primarily doing my own mounts. But I don't like uber light skis either.

    some people don't do it. at all. Some people do it alot. As far as we could tell at the shop, it was primarily people that were really aggressive about getting a knee down on NTN that ripped bindings out.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackalps View Post
    some people don't do it. at all. Some people do it alot. As far as we could tell at the shop, it was primarily people that were really aggressive about getting a knee down on NTN that ripped bindings out.
    Thanks for the input blackalps. Damn telewhackers!!!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackalps View Post
    Asking for a friend (really. I dont tele).

    Dude is on NTN. Got Brahmas at the insistence of a sales guy. Doesnt like them. Wants a light, lively, snappy ski. I know NTNs can rip out of light skis. I told him to go DPS since theyll warranty NTN rip outs. Anyone got a better suggestion? Hell be skiing all resort days. Loveland, to be precise.
    If he doesn't mind going a bit wider, my first suggestion would be the Voile UltraVector (not the lighter HyperVector, which wouldn't be covered by Voile warranty for a tele mount).

    Also, check out the non-carbon BD skis, as Peruvian suggested, e.g., the Route 88 or Route 95, which you can find on sale now, because BD updated them to the Helio Recon 88 and 95 (which are still non-carbon and OK for tele mounts).

    If he wants to stay narrower, the K2 Wayback 88 is another good ski for tele.

  19. #19
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    Forgot about K2 (duh). Their skis tend to run more damp than springy, but they have been enjoyed by tele skiers since the old K2 Telemark branded gear 15+ years ago.

  20. #20
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    I skied the K2 Annex 108 and it was an awesome tele ski. The newest incarnation of the narrower version is the Pinnacle 95 which might be a good option.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackalps View Post
    I disagree about the tele mount warranty issue. I worked at a shop last year and a fair (and increasing) number of ski manufacturers won't warranty NTN pullouts. Faction won't warranty any NTN pullouts. Voile won't warranty any tele on any of their lighter skis. Black Crows denied our customers several warranty claims due to Outlaws ripping out of their skis. Several other manufacturers don't have a blanket denial, but will deny case by case claims if they know it was an NTN binding, especially the Outlaw. The shop I worked at did more tele than any other shops in the area, and we had so many issues with it, we started steering people to metal skis, especially Blizzards, and companies like DPS that expressly state they will warranty all tele issues.
    Circling back on this now that I have more time. I don't see any disclaimer on Faction or Black Crows web pages regarding tele and warranty (and like you said it's not explicit). I would say the customer was done a disservice if that's the case. I would fight that shit tooth and nail if they were my skis. Given the shitty mounts from shops I have seen over the years (and plenty of good ones out there too I realize), I always suggest to mount your own fucking skis! And regarding spring loaded, what do you think 75mm bindings use? (outside of traditional 75mm toe connection only of course) Granted NTN is shorter and can end travel abruptly on certain model/spring combos.

    If someone can provide a picture of a Rottefella Freeride plate pulling out (the six screw version) I would truly be impressed. Not a Freedom, not a supertelemark, Freeride. "Rottefella" doesn't provide much information similar to my earlier comment on "NTN" as a catch all.

    Tele vs alpine toe forces ain't rocket surgery so nothing new or enlightening there, but I think a good mount mitigates a lot of that concern. I have used glue and epoxy but recently switched to Gorilla construction adhesive. Glue, even waterproof, is a poor choice IMO, I've pulled too many rusty screws. On the flip side, I have snapped screw heads trying to remove from epoxy if I don't warm the screw enough (Peruvian can vouch if he remembers regarding some Switchbacks I sold him, ha). Anyway, I sure wouldn't be mounting them on honeycomb core toothpicks though. I think pullouts say as much about ski construction as anything and manufacturers are cutting corners more and more for weight savings. Metal topsheets certainly would help mitigate this, as would hardwood or a plate under the mount area.

    Anyway, not to get too sidetracked and I definitely appreciate blackalps first hand input. But I do think it is obviously good to consider construction of the ski along with the mounting methods and binding type. Also, tele pullouts tend to have more soul than alpine pullouts

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    If he can get over the totally flat tail thing, Liberty Origin 90 or Head Kore 93.
    I just picked up the head kore 105 for DD use here in Utah. Im mounting Outlaw.

    To be honest I was not aware till very recently that ski manu deny warranty on skis mounted w NTN bindings. Ill stay tuned here, ask around and report back as warranted. Heh.

    Just what telemark needs is bad press like this....bah.

  23. #23
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    You'll be fine!
    Name:  honeycomb.JPG
Views: 80
Size:  32.3 KB

    and bad press comment made me chuckle

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3PinGrin View Post
    You'll be fine!
    Name:  honeycomb.JPG
Views: 80
Size:  32.3 KB

    and bad press comment made me chuckle
    Lol I thought Id get some chuckles on that.

    As for the kore, Im not a knee to ski person but definitely not a lightweight either so we will see how it goes.

  25. #25
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    Enforcer 88/93/100, depending on flex and width preference

    Metal, not that stiff, poppy and carvy. Fun ski. Not that heavy for a metal ski.

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