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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3PinGrin View Post
    Circling back on this now that I have more time. I don't see any disclaimer on Faction or Black Crows web pages regarding tele and warranty (and like you said it's not explicit). I would say the customer was done a disservice if that's the case. I would fight that shit tooth and nail if they were my skis. Given the shitty mounts from shops I have seen over the years (and plenty of good ones out there too I realize), I always suggest to mount your own fucking skis! And regarding spring loaded, what do you think 75mm bindings use? (outside of traditional 75mm toe connection only of course) Granted NTN is shorter and can end travel abruptly on certain model/spring combos.

    If someone can provide a picture of a Rottefella Freeride plate pulling out (the six screw version) I would truly be impressed. Not a Freedom, not a supertelemark, Freeride. "Rottefella" doesn't provide much information similar to my earlier comment on "NTN" as a catch all.

    Tele vs alpine toe forces ain't rocket surgery so nothing new or enlightening there, but I think a good mount mitigates a lot of that concern. I have used glue and epoxy but recently switched to Gorilla construction adhesive. Glue, even waterproof, is a poor choice IMO, I've pulled too many rusty screws. On the flip side, I have snapped screw heads trying to remove from epoxy if I don't warm the screw enough (Peruvian can vouch if he remembers regarding some Switchbacks I sold him, ha). Anyway, I sure wouldn't be mounting them on honeycomb core toothpicks though. I think pullouts say as much about ski construction as anything and manufacturers are cutting corners more and more for weight savings. Metal topsheets certainly would help mitigate this, as would hardwood or a plate under the mount area.

    Anyway, not to get too sidetracked and I definitely appreciate blackalps first hand input. But I do think it is obviously good to consider construction of the ski along with the mounting methods and binding type. Also, tele pullouts tend to have more soul than alpine pullouts
    I don't know about company website claims other than Voile, I just know that Faction told us directly that they wouldn't warranty NTN mounts in their skis.

    on the spring-related tension on the binding mount...it's not even in the same ball park on 75mm and NTN. especially on Outlaws. there's WAY more tension on the rear screws on an Outlaw mount than on an Axl mount, for example. I realize you ski NTN and you like it and you like your Rottafella bindings, but...having spent a full season working as a tech in a shop that does a shit ton, if not THE most tele in the Front Range, and the last shop to offer a tele demo fleet (not anymore, no one ever rented them), all I can tell you is that NTN bindings rip out. A lot. Including every single model of Rottafellas (not to mention the shitty plastic base plates breaking, but that's another issue). The only time I ever saw alpine bindings pull out was either on very old skis, shitty home mounts, or shitty home adjustments. Oh, and a couple freak wrecks that put incredible side loads on the bindings. Considering we did about 20 or 30 to 1 alpine vs tele, I'd say that qualifies as a trend.


    Speaking of home mounts, we spent a fair amount of time fixing people's home mount mistakes. Bad or wrong templates (like using a template from a previous version etc), misunderstood the templates, just plain didn't know how to use a drill, using a normal bit without a stop and drilling through the ski, mounting bindings crooked, moving mounts way too far forward or back because of something they read on a forum *cough*, etc. If you know what you're doing, by all means, go for it. But it's not for everyone.

    also, while we're at it...epoxy often causes more problems than it solves, generally speaking. I do still recommend it for tele, especially NTN, but be prepared that there's a good chance you'll either be ruining the ski or the screws or both if you ever try to unmount it and don't have the patience and skill of a woodworking saint. If the screws are rusty with waterproof glue, than most likely, the person doing the mount either didn't use enough glue, or didn't screw the screw in far enough (more common than you think).


    anyway. just my experience. not like i'm a master lifetime ski tech.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    556
    I've got a pair of g3 Tickets (182's - longest they came in), in great shape, I would sell for cheap. Light 'n lively, for sure, but loves to go fast too. Elbow-to-snow carving on tap. Pretty sure it was designed as a tele ski and has a binding reinforcement plate (under the topsheet).

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Western MT
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    1,306
    Quote Originally Posted by blackalps View Post
    I don't know about company website claims other than Voile, I just know that Faction told us directly that they wouldn't warranty NTN mounts in their skis.

    on the spring-related tension on the binding mount...it's not even in the same ball park on 75mm and NTN. especially on Outlaws. there's WAY more tension on the rear screws on an Outlaw mount than on an Axl mount, for example. I realize you ski NTN and you like it and you like your Rottafella bindings, but...having spent a full season working as a tech in a shop that does a shit ton, if not THE most tele in the Front Range, and the last shop to offer a tele demo fleet (not anymore, no one ever rented them), all I can tell you is that NTN bindings rip out. A lot. Including every single model of Rottafellas (not to mention the shitty plastic base plates breaking, but that's another issue). The only time I ever saw alpine bindings pull out was either on very old skis, shitty home mounts, or shitty home adjustments. Oh, and a couple freak wrecks that put incredible side loads on the bindings. Considering we did about 20 or 30 to 1 alpine vs tele, I'd say that qualifies as a trend.


    Speaking of home mounts, we spent a fair amount of time fixing people's home mount mistakes. Bad or wrong templates (like using a template from a previous version etc), misunderstood the templates, just plain didn't know how to use a drill, using a normal bit without a stop and drilling through the ski, mounting bindings crooked, moving mounts way too far forward or back because of something they read on a forum *cough*, etc. If you know what you're doing, by all means, go for it. But it's not for everyone.

    also, while we're at it...epoxy often causes more problems than it solves, generally speaking. I do still recommend it for tele, especially NTN, but be prepared that there's a good chance you'll either be ruining the ski or the screws or both if you ever try to unmount it and don't have the patience and skill of a woodworking saint. If the screws are rusty with waterproof glue, than most likely, the person doing the mount either didn't use enough glue, or didn't screw the screw in far enough (more common than you think).


    anyway. just my experience. not like i'm a master lifetime ski tech.
    I get and believe what you are saying. I re-read my post and it was more asshatish than I intended, I was wearing my crotchety old telewhacker hat I guess. But I do disagree on wood glue based on first hand experience (and seen plenty of other posts of rusty screws too). A guy on teletips did and extensive comparison between wood glue / epxoy and screws ripping out. There was no comparison based on his results, epoxy was king. Wish that thread was still available. Anyway glue/epoxy is kind of like the "which chain lube" threads, never consensus from the masses, ha.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
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    5,508
    Quote Originally Posted by skizix View Post
    I've got a pair of g3 Tickets (182's - longest they came in), in great shape, I would sell for cheap. Light 'n lively, for sure, but loves to go fast too. Elbow-to-snow carving on tap. Pretty sure it was designed as a tele ski and has a binding reinforcement plate (under the topsheet).
    OPs friend should take you up on this. Those were awesome front side carvers. I had the Rapid Transit that was slightly wider and they did everything well.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    556
    I don't know how anyone can say wood glue is better than epoxy for binding mounts. Wood glue is more brittle, and clearly does not bond well to metal (so the seal quickly becomes compromised, leading to rusty screws).

    You don't have to be a "woodworking saint" to remove epoxied screws. You just need a little heat - a few seconds with a soldering iron (pointy tip), in the screw crosshairs, and the screws come out perfectly clean. Not rocket surgery, never had an issue with it.

    I suspect the only reason most shops go with wood glue is that it's quicker and less messy then epoxy.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
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    403
    Quote Originally Posted by skizix View Post
    I don't know how anyone can say wood glue is better than epoxy for binding mounts. Wood glue is more brittle, and clearly does not bond well to metal (so the seal quickly becomes compromised, leading to rusty screws).

    You don't have to be a "woodworking saint" to remove epoxied screws. You just need a little heat - a few seconds with a soldering iron (pointy tip), in the screw crosshairs, and the screws come out perfectly clean. Not rocket surgery, never had an issue with it.

    I suspect the only reason most shops go with wood glue is that it's quicker and less messy then epoxy.

    quicker, cheaper, less toxic, less messy. all reasons why. Also most factory binding screws are made of cream cheese, so when you heat up the epoxy, it often softens the screw as well. If ski shops switched to doing all mounts with epoxy, lead times on getting your skis back from the shop would most likely double or triple. Nothing crabbier than a rich white person that can't get their skis back fast enough for the ski trip they planned months ago but didn't drop their skis off for until the day before they left. Fast, cheap, and good, pick two. Customers want their shit done quick in ski season, ski shops want to turn a profit off the labor, so you get waterproof glue. At least at the shop I worked at, if someone requested epoxy, we did it.

    I made custom furniture for years, $30k desks for folks living in penthouse suites, stingray skin and bubinga veneer desks for the White House, that type of thing. I personally find getting epoxy mount bindings screws out of skis to be a royal pain in the ass.

    at the end of the day, personal experience home mounting 6 or 10 pairs of skis in your lifetime is valid, of course, but is not the same as months on end of mounting 40 or 50 pairs of skis a day.

    also, fwiw, while we're going anecdotal, I've mounted all of my own skis with waterproof glue and have never had a single rusty screw in 20+ pairs of skis. Also never had a binding rip out. Had bindings break, never had them rip out.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
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    403
    Quote Originally Posted by 3PinGrin View Post
    I get and believe what you are saying. I re-read my post and it was more asshatish than I intended, I was wearing my crotchety old telewhacker hat I guess. But I do disagree on wood glue based on first hand experience (and seen plenty of other posts of rusty screws too). A guy on teletips did and extensive comparison between wood glue / epxoy and screws ripping out. There was no comparison based on his results, epoxy was king. Wish that thread was still available. Anyway glue/epoxy is kind of like the "which chain lube" threads, never consensus from the masses, ha.

    I wasn't offended or anything. didn't think much of it. this forum is so abrasive some days, I don't notice it really anymore.

    at any rate, yes, epoxy is definitely better for Tele, which puts way more stress on the screws than alpine. I personally find it unnecessary for alpine. I don't ski tele and wont, but if I did, I would prob mount with epoxy. Tele skiers also typically keep their gear way longer than alpine resort skiers, so epoxy makes sense. I only ski my skis for a season usually, because I find the gear aspect to be fun, and I also don't like dead skis.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    556
    Quote Originally Posted by blackalps View Post
    quicker, cheaper, less toxic, less messy. all reasons why. Also most factory binding screws are made of cream cheese, so when you heat up the epoxy, it often softens the screw as well. If ski shops switched to doing all mounts with epoxy, lead times on getting your skis back from the shop would most likely double or triple. Nothing crabbier than a rich white person that can't get their skis back fast enough for the ski trip they planned months ago but didn't drop their skis off for until the day before they left. Fast, cheap, and good, pick two. Customers want their shit done quick in ski season, ski shops want to turn a profit off the labor, so you get waterproof glue. At least at the shop I worked at, if someone requested epoxy, we did it.

    I made custom furniture for years, $30k desks for folks living in penthouse suites, stingray skin and bubinga veneer desks for the White House, that type of thing. I personally find getting epoxy mount bindings screws out of skis to be a royal pain in the ass.

    at the end of the day, personal experience home mounting 6 or 10 pairs of skis in your lifetime is valid, of course, but is not the same as months on end of mounting 40 or 50 pairs of skis a day.

    also, fwiw, while we're going anecdotal, I've mounted all of my own skis with waterproof glue and have never had a single rusty screw in 20+ pairs of skis. Also never had a binding rip out. Had bindings break, never had them rip out.
    Mostly makes sense - why I suggested it (reasons for shops using wood glue).

    But...the heat needed to cleanly remove epoxied screws...softening those screws? Wha? Seems highly unlikely, and that the ski would be pretty well fukt at that point. It really doesn't take that much heating (but then, I just use regular old, 24-hour epoxy, not some marine-grade craziness - point being to make a patent seal and prevent any possibility of screws vibrating out, not necessarily add strength, per se). Can't say I've ever pulled out a deformed screw.

  9. #34
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    Jan 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by skizix View Post
    Mostly makes sense - why I suggested it (reasons for shops using wood glue).

    But...the heat needed to cleanly remove epoxied screws...softening those screws? Wha? Seems highly unlikely, and that the ski would be pretty well fukt at that point. It really doesn't take that much heating (but then, I just use regular old, 24-hour epoxy, not some marine-grade craziness - point being to make a patent seal and prevent any possibility of screws vibrating out, not necessarily add strength, per se). Can't say I've ever pulled out a deformed screw.

    just meant it can soften enough that it can be easier to strip the screw head.

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